Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on May 14, 2012 15:34:17 GMT
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Sooooo glad about the addition of "He's fine, by the way" to the title... ... but I am holding you responsible for me nearly choking on my teatime biccie 'cos the crumbs went down the wrong way! I am keeping a tab open with this one till my better half gets back to enjoy it too. If this doesn't have a thousand views by tomorrow I'll be very, very surprised. How long till the babies move on to their new homes now, Sam? (and of course, thankyou once again)
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on May 14, 2012 15:02:01 GMT
I kind of feel I ought to 'own up' here that ther are some particular reasons why I have such strong feelings about this topic - and such distaste for the methods e-Lites and similar vendors use in their marketing. I have personally met and spoken with many people who have been taken in by misleading claims - and as a result, completely put off the whole idea of e-cigs. On this one, I really DO know what I'm talking about.
I am probably the most microscopically tiny e-cig seller you will ever come across. Once a week I have a stall at my local market where I sell vaping equipment and supplies in person, primarily to people who live in the area. I'm only able to do this part-time as I suffer from depression and simply can't cope with operating on anything like a full-time basis - particularly during the winter, when I also struggle with SAD as well; the medics rather boringly refer to this as "double depression"!
Chrissie and some of the 'old hands' in AAEC are already aware of this - I've discussed it with Chrissie several times as I've never concealed the fact; her most recent ruling regarding my status as 'member' rather than 'supplier' was that unless I wanted to start selling directly to any of the members here was that I could remain as I am, just another member.
As my 'business' is so tiny by comparison with any other vendors you might come across here or anywhere else online, I don't have the ability to buy in the kind of quantities they probably do - I don't buy anything in large numbers and as a result don't get the prices they do, either. As a result, many of my prices are not going to look terribly competitive online to 'educated' vapers - but in truth they were never my 'target market' anyway. (And even so, I still have weeks when I lose money rather than earning any)
I started doing the stall almost three years ago for two primary reasons - the first was to try and make sure that at least one day a week I would be dressed and go out of the house and interact with other people. The other reason was that I was conscious that not all smokers are computer users, so I figured there WAS a gap in the market for me to fit into. In addition, plenty of ripoff cowboy sellers were already gearing up to misleading people and relieving them of too much money for inferior products even then. I wanted to give people the chance to find out about e-cigs without any bullsh*t and also try them out, which you still can't do through a computer screen!
"Cigarette equivalences" have therefore been something I've been nose-first up against for quite some considerable time and they continue to be a thorn in my side to this day. As anyone who has been vaping for a few months will probably agree, they are in fact largely meaningless anyway - certainly from the moment you start refilling anything for yourself, which I've always encouraged people to do, right from the beginning. Refill liquids were on my stall from the first time I set it up - and I still reckon now, just as I did then, lack of refill liquids in any sellers' product line is very telling indeed.
All that aside, the first questions most newcomers ask often start with "how long will...?" so I've become quite expert at explaining that I don't wish to sound evasive in any way, but this WILL vary considerably from one smoker to another. Regardless of whether you are talking about cartridges, cartomisers, atomisers or batteries, the length of time one person will use one for is always different to the next person.
For such a tiny seller I offer a fairly ridiculous range of equipment and of necessity mix quite a lot of my liquids myself (there's no way that I could provide different strengths otherwise, apart from anything else) but I do still have some of the cheapie cig-a-likes, both disposable and rechargeable among my stock. There IS a demand for them - many people really DO want something that looks like a cigarette and will not even consider buying something like an eGo to begin with.
The difference is that I regard these as 'gateway products' and if someone has little money with them and is obviously uncertain, I'll happily suggest they try using one of these to establish for themselves whether they find using one helps them to cut down (or cut out) the number of cigarettes they smoke at minimal cost. If it does, they will feel much more confident about returning to look at arming themselves with something else which may well cost more to start off with but should easily more than pay for itself and possibly provide them with a better vaping experience to boot.
People who come to me by recommendation, having met another of my customers and maybe tried out something totally un-ciggie-like, (a gratifying number of people DO come to me this way) may be happy or even keen to dive in with something else.
Either way, I never feel the slightest need to lie or exaggerate to anyone - if anything, I'd rather underplay it then point out that I'd prefer they were pleasantly surprised than left feeling misled and ripped off. I will be there next week too and I really DO hope to see them again!
You can probably tell that I don't come from a sales background and freely accept that I will probably never get rich doing things the way I do - but money is NOT the only reason why I do this. It would be great simply to earn a modest living and stop paying for my stock on credit cards. I'm not there yet, but I still have hope... (on good days!)
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on May 14, 2012 8:06:31 GMT
You know what? This has turned into one of the best threads I've ever seen, in terms of raising and discussing the issue of cig-a-likes. If you could be absolutely CERTAIN that a newbie would read it from start to finish, I'd even suggest it should be moved back into the main area - but you can't, so I won't!
It has also been a blinding example of how AAEC works, too. It's got a little heated at times, but everyone has basically come back to make or emphasize their points without descending TOO far into disparaging each other - essentially, by and large, everyone's minded their manners and pretty much accepted that people do have differing opinions and do indeed have a right to do so.
I can honestly picture this happening 'live' in a pub and ending up as a fist fight, but because it as taken place here, it hasn't. People have thought about their responses and taken time over them, even after consuming a goodly quantity of what I'm assuming is a rather good Scotch! (Never heard of Tomintoul before, apologies for my ignorance) Well done Bluefish - I doubt I could even type after that, let alone make some perfectly good points, which you did.
The nub of the problem as I see it is something which most smokers don't ever realise or think about - and there's never been any reason why they should until e-cigs came along. We all smoked very differently - much more so than you might think and not even simply how many we smoked. When you start to think about it, the fact that one way or another, paper tubes with tobacco inside (ie cigarettes) kept the vast majority of nicotine users (relatively) happy for one heck of a long time is simply astonishing!
Once you make the transition from smoker to vaper, the differences become much more apparent and THIS is why SOME smokers will do just fine with a lookalike yet others will want more (or something different) from their nicotine delivery device. Vaping makes this possible and the e-cig industry is more than keen to offer a different experience - hence the bewildering variety now on offer.
I think Hifi is pretty well aware that he isn't your average vaper - not many people actually do brandish devices almost the size of a milk bottle! But then, he wasn't your average smoker, either. This is absolutely fine; I'd fight to the death to defend his right to use whatever equipment he chooses that keeps him happy and away from tobacco. I'm not so happy though, about the idea of him waving said device at anyone else and intoning "THAT'S an e-cig" in true Crocodile Dundee fashion. That would be fine at a Vapefest but NOT in a shopping mall aimed at this unfortunate e-Lites vendor.
All that said, the vast majority of smokers will NOT find the contents of one small cartomiser to be equivalent to 40 cigarettes of any kind, and I do have a big problem with a company that makes this assertion and prints it all over their packaging. This CAN degrade the whole concept of electronic cigarettes in the eyes of a first-time user who may very well go straight back to conventional cigarettes. This is nothing short of a tragedy, and I'd very much like to see it stopped.
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on May 13, 2012 14:54:35 GMT
I'm kind of with womble on this one too. Instead of a flash mob, rerun the experiment of last week, using a fresh punter and getting video. When he is done, hifi should step up and chalenge his claims, show his video of only getting 100 or so drags from an e-lite etc. Get the whole thing on video and then send it to E-lite, ECITA and possibly trading standards. Likely to bear more fruit than a flash mob. I think this, (PARTICULARLY including raising the matter with ECITA) is far and away the best suggestion so far and I'm very happy to see HiFi agreeing with the notion. I've actually been feeling rather sorry for this poor chap - HE is the one who has been 'had over' even more than his unfortunate customers. He's paid out for a franchise and a load of stock and may very likely not understand AT ALL why people don't come back to buy shedloads more. He can't possibly have been an experienced vaper before he got into this or he wouldn't have touched it with a barge pole. You've got to make a hell of a lot of sales to recover just the rent for his kiosk so it's hardly surprising he would try almost anything (like posting cartos for free) to try and make another sale. The people to blame for this are whoever runs e-Lites and THEY should be the ones held to task. Does anyone know if there's any quick and easy way to raise this with ECITA? They need to do something about this vendor and FAST or their reputation will be in the bin - and that would be bad for ALL of us. ECITA have been very involved with the legislators who are at the end of the day going to bring in regulations, like it or not. It really is crucial that they maintain their reputation in order to be taken seriously - and THAT is what should be the 'big story' for VTTV.
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 15, 2012 21:29:23 GMT
Signed, as I always do with any petitions brought to my attention here! Thankyou for bringing this one to us, Scylla.
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 15, 2012 21:18:34 GMT
Just wanted to add my thanks as well - must admit that the bulk of my own research (as a consumer) was carried out prior to my first e-cig purchase, now well over 3 years ago, and things have actually come quite a long way since then.
Keeping abreast of attitudes in the scientific community is amazingly time-consuming and not always terribly illuminating so I tend to largely rely on the forums to stay up-to-date-ish nowadays despite obvious bias!
(Mostly I'm just delighted to see that Charleski is still dropping by and happy to contribute his view from within the medical profession!!)
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 15, 2012 20:43:41 GMT
Haven't been in here last couple of days (real life - bah!) but we have the KittyCam up in a tab all the time we're online; love it, love it - thankyou! My partner Nick is checking them regularly now too and he reckons they're already growing noticeably! Any signs of eyes beginning to open yet, Sam? They will be one whole week old tomorrow!! Pooh about the fleas nasty things. Better check my own furry... Good that Frankie's coming round slowly - poor chap's had a heck of a shock with all this, he'll probably have just got used to them by the time they start going off to new homes. I do think Nicky may not be far off the mark, it's possible she could get a little jealous of how much of your attention the kits are getting but I know well how irresistible they are. Thankyou once again for allowing us all to share this delightful time with Lumen and her babies.
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 12, 2012 21:02:40 GMT
But vapourising PG over a heated coil which is capable of boiling water ie., over 100 degrees may alter it chemically. Another thing is PG gets converted to lactic acid in our body which is the main chemical responsible for muscles cramping when we get tired as I understand it. So what is the effect of dumping large quantities of PG in our lungs? Thing is, I don't know but I would like to, from a trustworthy source. Sorry to be backtracking but I wanted to reply to Macca's concerns about PG. I'm not sure about cramping, but lactic acid is definitely the thing responsible for the burning sensation you get in muscles following exercise - we produce it ourselves so it is far from being alien within the human body. In addition, I'd question whether a few mls inhaled over many hours is actually a 'large' quantity - much of which is exhaled again. 5mls is a large teaspoonful, to put this into perspective. PG is used in the nebulisers which hospitals use for acute asthma attacks to deliver drugs directly into the lungs, which I definitely can't see them doing if this was felt to be unwise. It is also used in many other commonplace products, including carrying certain drugs directly into the bloodstream by injection. It really is a very widely used substance. One of the USEFUL things Intellicig/CN Creative have inadvertently let out of the bag is here: www.intellicig.com/research-and-development/vapour-analysis/ which makes it clear that their analysis of ECOpure vapour found this: "The results illustrated that the vapour contained the same ingredients as the neat ECOpure." While I appreciate that ECOpure is VG-based, this indicates that heating it with a coil to produce vapour does NOT cause chemical changes, otherwise different 'ingredients' would be found in the vapour. One of the things people were concerned about when VG liquids first came onto the market was that glycerine might be denatured by heat into a nasty byproduct called Acrolein, which is toxic. Intellicig have now proved that it doesn't. I'd rather imagine the same principle would apply to vapour from a PG-based liquid because I'm fairly sure that the concern about VG arose because glycerine is LESS stable than PG from a chemical point of view. If anyone else can confirm this I'd be much obliged!
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 12, 2012 18:56:51 GMT
It's possible they mean arsenic, Anne - I'm fairly sure that's been mentioned as being amongst all the ghastly 'extras' you get from burning tobacco. There are certainly all sorts of things in them and although much is made of there being thousands of them, logic demands they must be in fairly miniscule amounts.
Don't know about you, but I survived over 30 years of smoking and while it certainly didn't do me any good it hadn't finished me off completely before I started vaping. We're actually a pretty tough species, us humans. The vast majority live in towns & cities where the environmental contaminants are legion - just think vehicle exhaust fumes for a kickoff; most of the population survive them, too.
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 12, 2012 18:39:56 GMT
Dom, this is tangential to your magnificent presentation, hope you won't mind me jumping in here but I was so impressed with the pics & explanations I'm hoping you have an answer. I'm also a manic recycler of anything that still works if I can manage it - fairly treehuggerish but also terminally, terminally broke. Attempted dismantling a Stardust earlier today and failed miserably, tube will not budge in the slightest when attached to dead battery & attempted wiggling. Tried to get the bottom silver ring off by pulling with pliers, which I think is an alternative method someone has suggested but that wouldn't budge either, though I admit I didn't want to wrench at it too hard and cause the tube to crack. Ended up settling for removing mouthpiece, silicon cap + little metal thingy, washing out thoroughly and dryburning so it is now usable again, at least. (Wasn't best impressed it had caramelised & clogged in just a few days of use though!) Semi-pleased I managed to get this much done (feeling like a trainee gynaecologist getting it back together again - LOL!) but rewicking & re-coiling isn't going to be possible unless I can get the thing apart so figured it couldn't hurt to try asking if you have any suggestions/tips/tricks for getting one apart??
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 11, 2012 13:00:37 GMT
Just read out Ali's entire post to my partner, his comment: Wise. Very, very wise.
I wholeheartedly agree and add my thanks for posting this.
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 11, 2012 12:51:47 GMT
There's already thorough research been carried out into inhaling PG vapour going back to the 1940's, when they were considering using it in hospital wards for infection control due to the antibacterial & antiviral properties of PG. No harmful effects were found from prolonged exposure (months) in extremely heavy concentrations.
The unknown is the effect of inhaling flavourings - all 'food safe' if you swallow then digest them - but of course we don't do that. I fall back to the position that by comparison with the known damage caused by inhaling combustion products ain't no way this can be worse!
I'm just hoping/praying that ECITA's approach of co-operating with Trading Standards and compliance with their 'Standards of Excellence' will prove sufficiently robust to withstand any suggestions that we still require yet more legislation to "protect us".
Any new vendors could honestly do much worse than look into joining up as soon as they are able to do so for their own protection as much as any other reason. It will certainly save them a lot of effort and potentially very costs involved in finding things out the hard way. As a consumer, ECITA's standards seem more than robust enough for me and should provide any vapers purchasing from their members with reassurance regarding their products.
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 10, 2012 20:26:37 GMT
Would 4 dead KR batteries be any use to you? I've no idea how to remove the connectors without probably destroying them in the process but would be happy to send these along if you can get some use out of them. Just drop me a PM with your address.
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Tetsab
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 10, 2012 19:55:49 GMT
Great find, Sam! For once PayPal being a pain actually turned out useful. Thought I was pretty good at tracking down best prices but next time I shall ask you first! Checked up for Theo's favourite biccies but unfortunately they only seem to have the prescription diet types and not the Siamese 38 type. (Theo's Balinese, which is a semi-longhaired version) I am just hoping that Frankie's simply a bit put out by all the disruption to "his" household that Lumen's litter arriving has caused and once things calm down a bit he will be back to his usual self. He might even still be about being put outside yesterday when you had to go out! Plugging in the Feliway again certainly can't hurt, along with some extra attention when he allows just to reassure him that he's still just as much loved as he always has been.
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Post by Tetsab on Mar 10, 2012 19:30:34 GMT
Just been & checked to make absolutely certain and yes, I have already signed this one - still seems like a good excuse for bumping this thread, though!
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