andym
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Post by andym on Nov 18, 2012 21:26:47 GMT
I wouldnt be worried about Big Pharma,they dont make that much from NRT anymore.The marketplace is flooded with "generic" versions of Branded NRT items.Drugs like Champix have too small a Patient Group,plus they arent particularly nice drugs and have lots of VERY nasty side effects.Currently there is very little promotion of OTC stuff due to the costs involved.Over the past year several large Pharma companies have cut or even made redundant Primary Care and OTC sales forces.They are well aware of their Products limitations,dont forget when they came out there were NO alternatives to Cold Turkey and Willpower,today its a different kettle of fish.The entity we really need to worry about is the Govt and what they will do to replace the lost revenue from Tobacco Tax!
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CAM-VIP
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Post by CAM-VIP on Nov 18, 2012 22:00:27 GMT
I personally think that the people making money from the ecig world (ie the vendors) should fund ECCA.
As the constitution is robust - there will be NO conflict of interest, just the small community (as it is now) working towards a common goal.
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Gordy
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Post by Gordy on Nov 18, 2012 22:16:14 GMT
cheers for the clarification Rusty
what are the goals of ECCA? im thinking more along the lines of small achievable gaols that maybe members here could donate time to helping with
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CAM-VIP
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Post by CAM-VIP on Nov 18, 2012 22:28:10 GMT
The small achievable goals should be set by the committee and broadcast to the wider community via the forums and elsewhere for people to volunteer their time like you have suggested Gordy. Unfortunately, there doesn't even seem to be any committee meetings anymore Perhaps Sam or Rolygate will read this and let us know
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womble
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Post by womble on Nov 18, 2012 23:25:20 GMT
I'm unsure about telling more people about ecigs for one reason, everyone I speak to, who has tried them and that is alot of people, only refer to ecigs as the small type of fag size and none of them have stayed on them for long.
...........because they aren't very good.
A small percentage of them will go onto the web, find forums and progress to something better..... a very small percentage.
To make it work, I think it almost has to be an enthusiast hobby for most people.
I've got no one I met onto ecigs.
I think the ecig community is together, but it will always be the small percentage who really get into it.
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Banky
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Post by Banky on Nov 18, 2012 23:26:22 GMT
Hi Russell, What if vendors did donate moneys to ECCA how would this moneys be collected and who would take the responsibility for said moneys, and why should vendors contribute to the ECCA. We the customer pay vat on what we buy the seller pays tax on what he/she sales it will come a time when the Government will start taxing us the buyer for our eliquid, nicotine. The big companies( Cigarette ) will move in on the ecig market and us the small fry wont have any thing or control in what is said or done and Russell i do commend you in what you are trying to achieve. BUT ? rab
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CAM-VIP
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Post by CAM-VIP on Nov 19, 2012 6:29:56 GMT
The reason I believe that the current vendors should get behind a fledgling Consumer Association are partly answered in your post rab9.
Within 12 months, it is very possible that the status quo will be turned on its head - even without interference from Governments.
The potential market for these products is huge and the interest of big business will have been piqued. These businesses may not have the same integrity as the majority of online vendors we currently know and trust.
So far, the industry has been self regulating because it is run by a bunch of enthusiasts - not businessmen.
The standards that ECITA set for its member, the standards that Jason at VapeEscape, Daz at SaferCigs, TW, CNCreative etc etc have set have helped to ensure that we as consumers are already protected from bad practice. The current vendors will benefit from a strong Consumer Association that upholds their values.
At present, we are all sort of singing off the same hymn sheet - we might be on different verses - but we are indirectly working together. This is likely to change when big business gets involved.
The 'pioneers' of electronic cigarettes in the UK (ie the current vendors) could be swamped or bought out by big business within months - and where would that leave us?
Russell
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kickit
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Post by kickit on Nov 19, 2012 8:05:16 GMT
With respect, a "consumer" association funded by vendors to uphold and protect their values is not a consumer association, it's a trade association.
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CAM-VIP
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Post by CAM-VIP on Nov 19, 2012 8:55:06 GMT
Where else can the funding come from then?
The Consumer Association has a robust constitution that will be acted upon by the elected officials. That is what makes it a Consumer Association - where the funding comes from is irrelevant. Even if it is funded by vendors, it is not a trade association as it is acting in the interests of consumers.
Over a year's worth of asking for donations from consumers netted ECCA the grand total of £67 - you cannot even get 5000 leaflets printed with that sort of backing, never mind pay for other projects of importance to the consumer.
Russell
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andy01424
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Post by andy01424 on Nov 19, 2012 12:02:30 GMT
problem i read and see from all ove rthe web is its easier for a Government to Ban a product like an Ecig ,because basic they cannot control its use,ie 20 marlrboro tax to hilt,ecig - tax to hilt a flavour hmm high tax in a strawberry ,Propel Glycol is widely used in food stuffs[ie salad cream apparently],Glycerine [Vg] widely used in food and cosmetic industry,basically unfeasible to do,rechargeable battery? ,but tobaco flavours could be hit hard and controlled but that wont stop steeping of leaves,hence ,so un high taxable,we all know basic its the coffers being hit,ecigs cannot be controlled as a single taxable unit,unlike normal cigs
Main concensus on all this is the word Tobacco related,yet no mention of the 30+ or more different flavours being used that are not tobacco related ,so then comes the hit "nicotine" well if in that case they may as well ban the stuff,but they won't has many uses including farming...
Maybe the real answer to all this is not a Campaign by individual Countries of Vapours,but global Campaign by all forum users,i read earliet on the net about one state in the US that banned it totally,the Vapour community took them to Court, only after it was produced a medical report on Vaporing showing that it caused basic no harm a Judge ruled the ban was illegal and resinded the state ban on the evidence it used, a Global assault is probably the way to go ,but agree it wont be long before the BIG Companies steam in to it,so maybe a hook up with Forums around the world is the only way ,a big voice is often the way to be heard
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azzie
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Post by azzie on Nov 19, 2012 17:50:14 GMT
Where else can the funding come from then? The Consumer Association has a robust constitution that will be acted upon by the elected officials. That is what makes it a Consumer Association - where the funding comes from is irrelevant. Even if it is funded by vendors, it is not a trade association as it is acting in the interests of consumers. Russell I can understand your frustration Russell, but if ECCA is funded by a third party business (with a vested interest) it is not a consumer association but a trade association. ECITA was accused of questionable practices in recent history and you do not want something like that for an organisation that is supposed to champion the end-user. I can imagine with so much uncertainty, about the future of ecigs, you will have an uphill struggle raising the profile of ECCA. I believe that to build a Consumers Association it needs to be an independent, non-profit, non-governmental organisation, registered with charitable status and working on behalf of the customers. If you look of at the early days of 'Which?' it built some of its funding on subscriptions from customers: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Which%3F
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Banky
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Post by Banky on Nov 19, 2012 19:11:09 GMT
Hi Russell, The problem i see with a ecig committees or union or for what ever name it may be, has to have funding and as i see it the vendors who are part of the ECCA, have a vested interest in their sales. I for one would be totally against a committee that is run by businessmen who have a vested interest in ecigs or related products.
I Am not slating these vendors, by any means far from it and this is my sole opinion, they have a living to make i myself like many vapers buy on line. I agree in a lot what andy01424 has to say we need global backing but again it comes to money how would it be raised.
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addict
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Post by addict on Nov 19, 2012 20:03:24 GMT
My tuppence worth:
Despite being a recent convert to vaping, I have already converted a couple of others. One of them was in a bad way with COPD and already feels the benefits after only three weeks, so all's good there. I'm a bit reluctant, however, to try converting anyone else, especially young people, because of the lack of studies into the effects of vaping and, consequently, the lack of regulation. Whilst I know that the work "regulation" is like a red rag to a bull for lots of enthusiastic vapers, it seems to me that the vaping industry is mostly internet-based where any rogue can set himself up in business.
Some of my concerns are:
What does any of us know about the contents of the e-liquid and the conditions in which the liquid is mixed? For all we know, vendors could be mixing the liquid in an unhygienic environment such as kitchen/shed/bathroom with pets in close proximity. This won't be a problem for those who mix their own, but the majority of us buy pre-mixed liquid.
How much is known about the possible harmful effects of long term (or even short term) use of atomisers, cartomiser, clearomisers, etc? I use a vivi nova and from what I have read so far, there seem to be doubts about the safety of the plastic and silicone in the vn.
No point reminding me that vaping is safer than smoking. I can figure that out for myself. Trouble is that we don't know how safe it is and all it takes to destroy the reputation of vaping is one popular item such as a vivi nova to be proved to be harmful. That's where regulation come in. In the absence of government regulation, isn't it in the industry's interests to get its act together and self-regulate? There might be short term gain working in an unregulated market, but long term success surely lies in consumer confidence.
I would feel a lot more confident spreading the word about vaping if I could point people to manufacturers/vendors complying to strict standards of quality control. I have no problem recommending vaping to older smokers like me but I would rather let youngsters go the cold turkey route than recommend to them something that still has possible safety issues.
Sorry if I've gone off in a tangent but I feel that the industry needs to sort itself out before consumers can confidently lobby the authorities to make vaping "respectable".
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giles
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Post by giles on Nov 19, 2012 20:28:07 GMT
I've been vaping 3 months, regard myself as interested and involved in vaping and not particularly blinkered, and this is the first I've heard of ECCA (which I've now joined) and CAM-VIP (which I haven't - so far all pubs I've been into are vaping-friendly or at least tolerant).
I'd have thought that the main vaping communities are the forums (fora?), and that you/we should be able to promote actions there.
That said, we could do with some organisation that the government might consult before changing the laws. I don't know what the status of ECITA is in the eyes of the government, and whether they would necessarily represent the consumer well. I can't tell from the website what sort of organisation it is. I suspect that we have two different communities here - call them cig-alike users and hobbyists - with very different attitudes objectives and, especially, suppliers. I don't know, but I suspect that the cig-alike suppliers are much bigger, and their customers much more numerous. It isn't in the interests of the hobbyists to have the laws designed by cig-alike suppliers. I could see them banning the sale (or unlicensed import) of unflavoured nic, for example. But I suspect that we need those suppliers - that a lot of the people here started on second-rate cig-alikes, and would never have got onto the good stuff otherwise.
What would you do with the money if you got it Russell?
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Banky
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Post by Banky on Nov 19, 2012 23:07:43 GMT
Hi addict, I mix my own e-liquid so know what goes in it, for the pre-mixed e-liquid the buyer should do a bit of home work go on a forum ask for recommendations about vendors, its there body they are inhaling e-liquid in to. I wish their was so much information about smoking the fags before i lit one up.
I have suffered all my life because i smoked with ill health Asthma, Emphysema i spoke to my doctors, chest consultant when i first took up vaping and got the same answer from both, well its got to be better then cigs, but at my own risk.
My own opinion bet your dollar it is better then the fags i would not ask any body to do what they don't want to do so if some one wants to vape its their responsibility to do some research to what they are getting in to with a little bit of commonsense to look after the cartomizer, tanks, novas. rbt's and keep them clean i will leave it at that im starting to ramble.
rab
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