Looky likey rip off

[Tetsab]

You know what? This has turned into one of the best threads I've ever seen, in terms of raising and discussing the issue of cig-a-likes. If you could be absolutely CERTAIN that a newbie would read it from start to finish, I'd even suggest it should be moved back into the main area - but you can't, so I won't!

It has also been a blinding example of how AAEC works, too. It's got a little heated at times, but everyone has basically come back to make or emphasize their points without descending TOO far into disparaging each other - essentially, by and large, everyone's minded their manners and pretty much accepted that people do have differing opinions and do indeed have a right to do so.

I can honestly picture this happening 'live' in a pub and ending up as a fist fight, but because it as taken place here, it hasn't. People have thought about their responses and taken time over them, even after consuming a goodly quantity of what I'm assuming is a rather good Scotch! (Never heard of Tomintoul before, apologies for my ignorance) Well done Bluefish - I doubt I could even type after that, let alone make some perfectly good points, which you did.

The nub of the problem as I see it is something which most smokers don't ever realise or think about - and there's never been any reason why they should until e-cigs came along. We all smoked very differently - much more so than you might think and not even simply how many we smoked. When you start to think about it, the fact that one way or another, paper tubes with tobacco inside (ie cigarettes) kept the vast majority of nicotine users (relatively) happy for one heck of a long time is simply astonishing!

Once you make the transition from smoker to vaper, the differences become much more apparent and THIS is why SOME smokers will do just fine with a lookalike yet others will want more (or something different) from their nicotine delivery device. Vaping makes this possible and the e-cig industry is more than keen to offer a different experience - hence the bewildering variety now on offer.

I think Hifi is pretty well aware that he isn't your average vaper - not many people actually do brandish devices almost the size of a milk bottle! But then, he wasn't your average smoker, either. This is absolutely fine; I'd fight to the death to defend his right to use whatever equipment he chooses that keeps him happy and away from tobacco. I'm not so happy though, about the idea of him waving said device at anyone else and intoning "THAT'S an e-cig" in true Crocodile Dundee fashion. That would be fine at a Vapefest but NOT in a shopping mall aimed at this unfortunate e-Lites vendor.

All that said, the vast majority of smokers will NOT find the contents of one small cartomiser to be equivalent to 40 cigarettes of any kind, and I do have a big problem with a company that makes this assertion and prints it all over their packaging. This CAN degrade the whole concept of electronic cigarettes in the eyes of a first-time user who may very well go straight back to conventional cigarettes. This is nothing short of a tragedy, and I'd very much like to see it stopped.

[vapingdaz]

Tetsab #icon_thumbsup#

[womble]

I reckon alot of the problem here is what is defined as a "draw". So companies claim that they get 400 draws from an e-cig carto, the way they do it, they probably do.
TBh, although this is misleading, it's no different from any other advertising, cars do up to **MPG, printers cartridges do up to ** copies.

Talk to e-lites, they are the ones that made the claim, the vendor is just repeating them.

I suspect they would have some way of showing that their way of telling it, is true, tests done etc. If not, then it's trading stds, which it could be anyway.

[vapingdaz]

Bluefish sorry couldn't quote, but actually you will.probably find lots and.lots of vapers have more than.one.device. Me included and its not one is more inferior than the other. Each device is different to vape on for flavour, throat hit and vapour.
There is nothing wrong with having a couple of.different devices, so Dave has a provari, so what????? Plenty of.other people do and a lavatube and a GG and a bolt etc.
I'm struggling to see your point.

[Globalbloke (Tim)]

Here in lies the problem, Sales people tend to stretch the truth anyway, you could argue that you could get 40 fags out of it if you took tiny puffs on it, unlikely it would make 40 fags I agree but the point could be argued. I have spent my life trying to fullfill "promises" that IT sales people have promised customers so not to lose face so this is isn't by any means localised to that Ecig vendor.

I agree with Tetsab as well, going down there brandishing a Provari or the like won't demonstrate a point, it will just show that hifistud drives a Ferrari and the vendor is selling a clapped out mini, I don't think there would be any mileage in it and won't demonstrate a point. Sure the guy is stretching the truth with his sales patter, sure we all know they are crap compared to what we use BUT I started on a skycig with the promise that the carts hold 20 fags in them and soon realised they didn't, it was at that point I started googling and came across this great forum to help me make some more informed decisions.

Will it damage cosumers views of ecigs? Sure it will, if people buy one, see it doesn't live up to expectations and they go back to the Analogues then the sales person has lost out of repeat custom on those over-priced carts and the consumer is still filling his or her body with evil smoke, is it counter-productive? Sure it is, but that guy is spending a fortune on that pitch, has to make sales to make it worth while and is desperate to get that initial sale in. Would be interesting to know how much profit he makes on the starter kit Vs the carts.

Saying all this, he is selling something E-lites have provided him with, only E-lites have the sales information telling them of repeat custom, if people are buying starter kits and not coming back to buy the carts then I think their sales director may need to rethink his strategy. There will be a heap load of profit in those 2 carts for £7.99 so they are going to want to get the repeat custom for the profit margins.

[hifistud]

May 14, 2012 8:30:32 GMT womble said:

I reckon alot of the problem here is what is defined as a "draw". So companies claim that they get 400 draws from an e-cig carto, the way they do it, they probably do.
TBh, although this is misleading, it's no different from any other advertising, cars do up to **MPG, printers cartridges do up to ** copies.

Talk to e-lites, they are the ones that made the claim, the vendor is just repeating them.

I suspect they would have some way of showing that their way of telling it, is true, tests done etc. If not, then it's trading stds, which it could be anyway.

It may go some way towards explaining why the stallholder kept intoning "a long draw'll make you cough, it'll make you cough" followed by a slightly despondent "oh, you can handle it". Patently, a four or five second draw was going to blow the "400 draws" out of the water.

The bottom line of it is easy to see, really. Had he - and e-lites - been honest, they'd acknowledge that the maximum ciggy-quivalent of a carto that size in all respects is ten (capacity of carto vs the average e-liquid consumption for a 20-a-day switcher, mg of nicotine delivered and draw count). If they do that, the "80% savings" magically disappear - £7.99 for a 20 ciggy-quivalent makes it more expensive than smoking Marlboro. Even TW sells a pre-filed carto at £1.75, but the average, outside of the e-lites kind of seller seems to be around £1.20, bought in fives.

There's a marked difference.

[womble]

May 14, 2012 9:54:36 GMT hifistud said:

It may go some way towards explaining why the stallholder kept intoning "a long draw'll make you cough, it'll make you cough" followed by a slightly despondent "oh, you can handle it". Patently, a four or five second draw was going to blow the "400 draws" out of the water.

Well that's true, but lets not forget that when people first try e-cigs, we all know how it does feel different to smoking an analouge.
In fact I've seen the recommendation on a e-cig forum to turn the voltage right down and to advise them not to take long drags, when you are letting a newbie have a go.

I very much doubt that he was thinking about the 400 drags per carto when he was advising you to not take long draws.

But if E-lites have the claim on their website, how on earth can you blame a vendor of theirs?

[hifistud]

I'm not "blaming" just the stallholder - I'd be interested to see/hear what other e-lites franchisees are telling folks, too. For completeness, I should maybe mention that yesterday, I got the opportunity to film a similar mystery shop with a VIP stallholder at the Gateshead Metro Centre - didn't go there with that intention - I didn't even know they were there. It, too, is interesting. Different script, but just as misinformed.

[womble]

Are you planning on showing that film?

[hifistud]

I am, yes...

[Brian]

I started on VIP`s. I thought they were the dogs, but soon realised there were much better stuff out there.

The thing is with their batteries, and they do warn about this, is that you shouldnt charge for more than 2 hours or the battery totally discharges. I can vouch for that, as it happened to 2 of mine.

They were not interested in replacing them as they pointed to T&C`s. Still got 2 batteries and almost 30 unused carts.

In one day I used up 4 carts that they state are the equivalent of 40 fags per cart.... total bull!

[vapingdaz]

May 14, 2012 11:29:52 GMT Brian said:

I started on VIP`s. I thought they were the dogs, but soon realised there were much better stuff out there.

The thing is with their batteries, and they do warn about this, is that you shouldnt charge for more than 2 hours or the battery totally discharges. I can vouch for that, as it happened to 2 of mine.

They were not interested in replacing them as they pointed to T&C`s. Still got 2 batteries and almost 30 unused carts.

In one day I used up 4 carts that they state are the equivalent of 40 fags per cart.... total bull!

Wow Brian that would have been enough to make any one go back on the fags.

[DiscoDes]

May 14, 2012 11:23:42 GMT hifistud said:

I am, yes...

When please Dave?

[hifistud]

probably Thursday...

[Brian]

May 14, 2012 12:00:34 GMT vapingdaz said:

May 14, 2012 11:29:52 GMT Brian said:

I started on VIP`s. I thought they were the dogs, but soon realised there were much better stuff out there.

The thing is with their batteries, and they do warn about this, is that you shouldnt charge for more than 2 hours or the battery totally discharges. I can vouch for that, as it happened to 2 of mine.

They were not interested in replacing them as they pointed to T&C`s. Still got 2 batteries and almost 30 unused carts.

In one day I used up 4 carts that they state are the equivalent of 40 fags per cart.... total bull!

Wow Brian that would have been enough to make any one go back on the fags.

But i found you guys before there were thrown in the drawer.

I was pointed towards Jasons retirement fund site and put the VIP`s to the back of my mind.... Call it a learning experience!