ASH Q&A on E-cigs

[kibbster]

they think they are great but would be much better as medicines.

www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_897.pdf


The section that says:
"The MHRA has said that flavours such as bubble gum and chocolate would
be deemed to be aimed at children. Marketing of NCPs aimed at non-smokers of any age or
intended to keep smokers smoking would also be contrary to their intended purpose."

makes me want to grab someone and beat some common sense into them!

Seriously!?
Chocolate and bubblegum flavours are aimed at children?
I guess as an adult it's illegal or wrong in some way for me to like those flavours, just as well I only eat that nutritional paste you see them eating in The Matrix because it provides all my body needs and flavour doesn't matter.
What about custard, fruit or other pudding flavours? 
I guess only children like sweet flavours then, probably means that Blue Cheese, broccoli and cabbage flavours are fine for us then because children hate those.

And the whole point of our PVs is to be able to keep "smoking" without dying from it, and the intended purpose of E-cigs has NEVER been to quit "smoking" or nicotine.

Forehead hurts from hitting my desk so often.

This is why we have to fight these utter berks as if our life depends on it, because let's be honest - would you trust any of these drongos with anything let alone something as important as your health!?

[djs]

One minute, ASH get it, and....um....then they don't. ???

By making this decision the government proposes to regulate electronic cigarettes and other
NCPs as medicinal products – this means ensuring high quality products that are able to
support smokers in cutting down and eventually to quit altogether.

or put another way, when all there is left is a white plastic stick that cannot (please read that as CANNOT, as in *impossible*, scientifically proven b.t.w.)
provide effective nicotine delivery, we're all sent back to.... *whatever*.

All these people actually think that one £3.99 cartomiser with 0.9ml of 18mg liquid will cure us all of our addiction to nicotine.

They are seeing it as "ohhhh so simple".... "get the big e-cig brands to pay us x amount of thousands per product, ban everything else, all existing vapers go onto nicolites or skycigs or E-lites at the new price of £7 a go (since that's still 40 cigarettes-worth for £7 - NOT) and we all win."

I don't mind them taking away the cheap imported unknown-quality cartos etc, but if they draw the line on liquid etc. (which they will) then 99% of my vaping liquid will become a thing of the past.

[Banky]

I wouldn't trust these people with my granny, never mind tell me what I should be vaping,
To me they are just kid's in a playground trying to be grownup's.

But unfortunlly they are running the MHRA. Bureaucrat's gone mad.

[kibbster]

All of that is down to the MHRA saying they are doing this because they've been told e-cigs aren't good enough.

My homemade juice and MVP would beg to differ as would my 8 months of being analogue free.
And It's not like I'm the only one.

It's the same mentality as NRT, nicotine cessation.
make it thoroughly unpleasant like NRT is and people will either go back to smoking (don't worry the tax hikes and constant browbeating will being them back to NRT, or they'll die.) or people will finally give up the will to live on NRT and give up nicotine as well then they can help browbeat those that "failed" for extra condescension points.

[mittenkitten]

Aug 2, 2013 18:32:51 GMT kibbster said:

they think they are great but would be much better as medicines.

www.ash.org.uk/files/documents/ASH_897.pdf


The section that says:
"The MHRA has said that flavours such as bubble gum and chocolate would
be deemed to be aimed at children. Marketing of NCPs aimed at non-smokers of any age or
intended to keep smokers smoking would also be contrary to their intended purpose."

makes me want to grab someone and beat some common sense into them!

Seriously!?
Chocolate and bubblegum flavours are aimed at children?
I guess as an adult it's illegal or wrong in some way for me to like those flavours, just as well I only eat that nutritional paste you see them eating in The Matrix because it provides all my body needs and flavour doesn't matter.
What about custard, fruit or other pudding flavours? 
I guess only children like sweet flavours then, probably means that Blue Cheese, broccoli and cabbage flavours are fine for us then because children hate those.

And the whole point of our PVs is to be able to keep "smoking" without dying from it, and the intended purpose of E-cigs has NEVER been to quit "smoking" or nicotine.

Forehead hurts from hitting my desk so often.

This is why we have to fight these utter berks as if our life depends on it, because let's be honest - would you trust any of these drongos with anything let alone something as important as your health!?

[mittenkitten]

This thing about "bubblegum and chocolate" being aimed at children is yet another smoke screen...the ages of the children that might want bubblegum and chocolate are children way under the age of even thinking about smoking. The children who do think about smoking DON'T have bubblegum and chocolate on their mind because it's just not "cool" enough for them.

This is what people should be looking at "Aspartame", a man made drug which is in every single diet drink, Coca Cola, Pepsi, Robinsons and, countless other thousands out there - some companies are honest and will label it, some call it "sweetner" "succralose" "succrose", again amongst the many names for it...but it was approved by the FDA as being "Safe for Human Consumption", it causes depression, anxiety, panic attacks and has to date killed 180,000 people, yet this stuff is sold to our children every single day!!

Smoke and mirrors, they cannot comprehend that we choose to vape because we know the terrible effects of tobacco cigarettes. I know and most people will know this too, that the tobacco companies aim cigarettes at 11-15 year olds in a bid to "get them young and keep them for life", except that life isn't going to be very long and even if it is, it's going to be filled with smoke related illness. If vendors of e-cigarettes stick to their guns and are stringent in complying with the regulations as they already stand - no selling to under 18's and no selling to people who don't already smoke - then what's the problem? For vapers the target market is for the over 25's because this is a time when someone realises that for years they have been abusing their body and they also cannot afford to smoke.

It's about time the likes of the MHRA, the FDA, WHO and several other bodies got real and started looking at the real problem. Vaping is an alternative method of smoking, and that makes us responsible. The big tobacco look for the young, market to the young because they want to keep them for as long as they can, and that makes them irresponsible, at least with e-cigarettes, whichever way an ex-smoker uses them, they can make a choice of lessening their nicotine level and eventually becoming nicotine dependent free or choose to stay using them.

An argument to have them placed in the medicines cupboard just won't hold up, if they are to be used as a smoking cessation device, which thousands upon thousands of people have already done by reducing their nicotine level, then fine, but to actually state that you have to have them as part of the nicotine replacement therapy regime is crazy, the global success rate of NRT's is less than 7%, and yet when this decision was made, they didn't regulate cigarettes! Why?

We are growing rapidly in numbers by the day, we are, at the last count in the UK, 1.3 million vapers strong, no Government can argue with those numbers, we are organised, we have our convictions, we wouldn't have great forums like this and so many others, Facebook Groups, Twitter pages, VapeFests, Campaigns if we were irresponsible and didn't know what we were doing, so I think that we may have been under-estimated, I urge anyone who vapes, and even those who don't as there are 741 million adults in the EU, to stand up and be counted, join as many campaign groups as possible, sign all the petitions, make your voice count, join forums, get involved in discussions and tell your friends. Every day we should celebrate as we know that every single day another smoker becomes a vaper...We chose not to be in the tobacco industry, the tobacco industry chose to be in the vaping industry, however, the tobacco industry will never be able to gain as much support from all the groups I've just mentioned, because when they speak, they speak about how much profit they forecast in the next quarter, when we speak, we speak about what e-liquids we love, what kits we are using, how we are looking forward to meeting at the VapeFest this month, and how bloody great we feel because we are no longer prisoners in the tobacco high dependency unit!

[neptune]

Quote from MHRA
There
is healthy competition between brands, which stimulates innovation and competition, which
ultimately benefits the consumer through improved products and lower prices. There is no
reason to believe this would be any different if applied to licensed NCPs, such as electronic
cigarettes.
No reason to believe apart from the fact that each new improvement or iteration would need a new License at a cost of two million pounds.

The MHRA "Deems" that flavoured e cigs are aimed at children. NRT gum and candies have flavours. So can we therefore assume that these are aimed at children too?

I hate that word "Deem" . Every time they Deam, I scream!

[mittenkitten]

The MHRA "Deems" that flavoured e cigs are aimed at children. NRT gum and candies have flavours. So can we therefore assume that these are aimed at children too?

I hate that word "Deem" . Every time they Deam, I scream!

Hee hee neptune I know exactly what you mean arrrrghghgh that ryhmes with it too lol x Let them Let's just say that they "assume" too much!

[GunJack]

They "assume" what big pharma/tobacco and elements of government tell them to...think that much is proven ....

[treeboa]

and to think these cretins are capable of breeding as well

[mittenkitten]

Let's all be very honest here:

Big tobacco joining OUR industry is a case of "if you can't beat them join them". I would!

World Health Organisation - WHO are they? What do they do other than over-complicate and under-value lives...therefore this body is neither needed nor wanted?

Pharmaceutical companies - they are so cash rich and debt free they aren't bothered, but it would be handy for them if people did keep suffering from smoke related illness, as one day it will impact on their business if people didn't. So they are forward thinking and there is something for them to worry about further down the line, but let's face it, they aren't going to go out of business - EVER!

MHRA - putting money before lives. Taking backhanders and NOT carrying out full research. Again, like WHO, over-complicating a simple matter.

MEP's/MP's - Running round like headless chickens. With austere times, too many people willing to "kiss and tell", they are surrounded by clandestine people, they don't know who to trust and what to do, so they follow the pied piper...and tick the same box as the person next to them. It is so rare for MEP's and MP's to have so many people on their case regarding electronic cigarettes and they STILL fail to do the right thing. The scary thing is, even if we win the vote in the EU, there is nothing to stop the UK Government deciding to ban e-cigs anyway! You only have to look at the EU ban on the pesticide "neo-nicotinoid" proven toxic to bees, banned by the EU but the UK Government has opted out of the ban and it is still in use in this Country! Without bees, we wouldn't exist! So what is the point of the EU...I guess the best thing for us is that if we can win the argument here in the UK, then that strengthens our case across the world.

How much proof does anyone need to show that the electronic cigarette is safe/safer. The fact is that millions of smokers have weighed up the evidence themselves and switched to electronic cigarettes, but what is even more important is that there are millions of people everyday who choose to vape rather than smoke. If electronic cigarettes were dangerous and did not do a job, then people would surely soon switch back to smoking, people are way more savvy than they are given credit for!

Something else to consider : In terms of air pollution, the motor car pollutes the air many times more than an electronic cigarette. In every country in the world motor cars kill and injure people every day, but we don't see the WHO or any other body suggesting that we should ban them.

Every day I read about electronic cigarettes in all places on the internet, in newspapers, I listen to the radio and if there are any debates on about e-cigs, I listen. What I hear more and more, is this argument "but e-cigs are not showing that people are quitting smoking by using them" and this bothers me greatly...it's almost as though this is going to be the basis for a complete ban. We have to keep reiterating that electronic cigarettes were NEVER intended to be a smoking cessation device, they are and will remain to be ENDS - ELECTRONIC NICOTINE DELIVERY SYSTEM...an alternative method to smoking! This is where our choices are being taken away and someone has decided to categorise the electronic cigarette in the "no smoking" cupboard, well, it doesn't belong there. It seems the harm is caused by smoking tobacco and not by nicotine, but politicians and so called health professionals and associated "do-gooders" are hell bent on waging a war on nicotine addiction and you have to ask WHY? The World Health Organisation has for 30 years been campaigning to wipe out malaria without little success and the real progress is now only being made because Bill Gates has stepped in with his millions of dollars!

Electronic cigarettes have to come to light (excuse the pun) because they have, by default, enabled people to quit effectively, not by using nicotine replacement therapies. This is not a case of self-medication, this is a case where people have wanted to quit, but with the NRT's being so ineffective, they have turned to electronic cigarettes, and they have managed to reduce their own nicotine strength in their e-liquids to a sufficient degree that they have become "non-smokers" and "non-vapers". The heavy handed regulation of nicotine replacement therapies have made them ineffective so why put something that is working into the same category as nicotine replacement therapy...it's nonsense, you know, I know, they know it, the MEP's and MP's know it, WHO know it, MHRA know it, this Government know it, even the tobacco and pharmaceuticals know it, yet this is still happening!!

The electronic cigarette is NOT a smoking cessation device, unless the person who is using it wants it to be - that is why we have choices and our choices are being taken away from us. These bodies are not asking themselves "why do people use electronic cigarettes"? - It seems to me that they are incapable of grasping the fact there is now a third alternative - they only see it this way "smoking or not smoking". What about the people who WANT TO USE E-CIGARETTES for recreational use in the same way people drink tea, coffee and also Pepsi, Coca Cola, Energy drinks, indeed anything with caffeine in!?

I said at the beginning of this thread, let's be honest here...well MEP'S/MP's, WHO, MHRA, The Government of the United Kingdom, nameless, faceless beaurocrats, do-gooders, pharmaceutical companies and even the tobacco industry, get real, there is an open market and the electronic cigarette is part of it, get used to it because we aren't going to go away...what is really needed is a proper enforcement of existing consumer regulation. There should be a ban on sales to minors and anyone who doesn't already smoke. Perhaps there should be regulation on advertising and promotion of electronic cigarettes and there is room for more testing of the vapour which is emitted both from the e-cigarette and exhaled by the vaper. Personally, I would like to see regulation on e-liquid labelling and an enforcement of such.

[treeboa]

without wishing to nulify your post , more especially as its a good one, the reality is your speaking to the converted and this sort of thing needs to be pushed into your local mp a few mep`s etc etc and fired off to some radio stations that are doing a `piece` on ecigs

[mittenkitten]

Perhaps I should have mentioned at the end then...people can of course download flyers and a template letter, the template letter is extremely well written and can be cut, copied, pasted and sent to your MEP and/or MP from www.vape4life.org - hope that helps, I wasn't trying to preach to the converted and I fully understand that everyone on AAEC is on here because they have all at some stage, converted from smoking to vaping.  I think I got a little carried away with their "damnation" of us all lol xx thank you though for letting me know

[mittenkitten]

PS: Can I just say that your point about pushing this out generally via radio etc., is a great one and that is the whole reason for the birth of www.vape4life.org, as we want to reach not just the vaping community, but also to educate those who have been hit hard by the scaremongery, those people who don't even know that electronic cigarettes exist and in fact all 741 million adult European citizens, whether they vape, smoke, live with a smoker/vaper, have children who are exposed to smoke, have friends who smoke and they are concerned for their health. The only great thing about smoking is that other than the age restriction put on it, it doesn't have a demographic - smokers are rich, poor, male, female, some under-age unfortunately, black, white, Christian, Catholic, Muslim, Jewish, able bodied, disabled, gay, lesbian, bi-sexual, transvestite, unemployed, employed, business owners, staff and I'm sure we can add to the list, but I'm also sure you get my drift x MK