I need grammar help, please

[kurotoshiro]

Jul 5, 2013 11:33:09 GMT Jen said:

2. UK EN does not have 'would' in a conditional, however it is (or 'it's'?? ) becoming more prevalent (almost ubiquitous) in US EN. I wouldn't really feel comfortable using it, but others might.

Could you give some examples? I'm not sure what this means.

Where do counterfactual conditionals fit in? (eg, "If X had happened, then Y would have happened")

Or am I missing the point with that example?

[chrisde]

If I understand that correctly, the "if clause" or conditional in that example is "If X had happened" and there should be no "would" in there, as in "If X would have happened". And yes, that's the core of the original question.

[kurotoshiro]

Jul 5, 2013 14:28:27 GMT chrisde said:

If I understand that correctly, the "if clause" or conditional in that example is "If X had happened" and there should be no "would" in there, as in "If X would have happened". And yes, that's the core of the original question.

Ah, right, I see. So the "if clause" is the part of the conditional that would be referred to as the 'antecedent' in logic. (That's my problem. I know about logic and philosophy, but I don't know the appropriate grammatical / linguistic terms!)

What about something like this?:

"If a man would be alone, let him look at the stars." (R W Emerson)

[Jen]

Jul 5, 2013 14:17:52 GMT kurotoshiro said:

Jul 5, 2013 11:33:09 GMT Jen said:

2. UK EN does not have 'would' in a conditional, however it is (or 'it's'?? ) becoming more prevalent (almost ubiquitous) in US EN. I wouldn't really feel comfortable using it, but others might.

Could you give some examples? I'm not sure what this means.

Where do counterfactual conditionals fit in? (eg, "If X had happened, then Y would have happened")

Or am I missing the point with that example?

Americans will often say things like 'If I would have given him X, then y would have happened', which is grammatically incorrect in UK EN. That's what I meant

Your Emerson quote - the 'would' there is essentially another word for want, making it a verb and therefore correct as I understand it.

[kurotoshiro]

Is that construct "officially" permitted in US English, then? Or is it just that lots of Americans say it, so it's mistaken for standard?

[Skwoddy]

I wish I could talk proper england, like my Mother used to could.

With tools like the "Urban Dictionary", Texting on Smart phones and as Des pointed out earlier, a more relaxed approach to grammar in schools, It's no wonder that English is becoming so bastardised. I find it quite sad.

[Jen]

Jul 5, 2013 14:57:56 GMT kurotoshiro said:

Is that construct "officially" permitted in US English, then? Or is it just that lots of Americans say it, so it's mistaken for standard?

Not sure - but Judge Judy even says it

[kurotoshiro]

Jul 5, 2013 15:21:36 GMT Jen said:

Jul 5, 2013 14:57:56 GMT kurotoshiro said:

Is that construct "officially" permitted in US English, then? Or is it just that lots of Americans say it, so it's mistaken for standard?

Not sure - but Judge Judy even says it

lol. Americans do seem to have difficulty with conditionals. Two things I notice a lot (probably because I watch sports / e-sports with American commentators) are:

(1) Shifting what should be the past tense into a strange present/future/continuous tense:

For example, after a game is finished, an American might say:

"If Smith doesn't drop the ball in the third quarter, Dallas win the game."

instead of

"If Smith hadn't dropped the ball in the third quarter, Dallas would have won the game."

(2) Weird identifications of the self with organisations or collections of individuals:

"If I'm the San Deigo Chargers, I'm getting worried about my draft picks for next season."

[Jen]

I think both those examples are of shifting into the present tense, (2) would have been 'If I were the SDV, I would be getting...'

Call it laziness, call it the evolution of language - it's fascinating

[chrisde]

Shifting things into the present avoids most of the complexity a language might have around timing or angle of view. Some language teachers completely ignore the past and the future for language crash courses. For the most part, the result is still understandable communication, but it is much simpler to learn.

I wouldn't expect it from someone in their own language, though.

Basically it's the step after the "I hunger" "You name?" "I not buy thing" level.

[dave]

Next up adjectival and adverbial phrases and clauses
We did a whole course on parsing sentences at school - I doubt anyone does that now! In fact I doubt I could do that now! I actually enjoyed it at the time, but I don't think too many others did