Why I Come Down On Certain Batteries.

[Deleted]

So I'm thinking that these batteries may be ok......IF.....we recognise they are probably 20A batteries.

Ripshod - I have 4 of these on the way........do you have testing kit?

I could send you 2 of them.

[Ripshod]

IR is not a definitive yardstick, the same as nothing else is. But as battery Currents rise it's becoming more and more important with regards to voltage sag at higher currents, and internal heating of a battery.

Many choose to just go for the 200-300 cycles, or when a mod rejects a battery a lot earlier than it used to.

All the things that affect a batteries life are factored in when we use 2.5Volts to work out the battery needed for a regulated mod. It includes a certain amount of headroom for the changes to a battery for it's useful lifetime.

It's not been mentioned before because this whole thing is a massive can of worms, but in regards to degredation, mech users are on their own. They have to learn to spot the subtle changes before they become a problem. But by the nature of the beast, mech users are buying new batteries a lot more often. I've gone through 3 full sets of batteries in the last 12 months, not because they're dying but because I'm looking for better.

If I was to make a guide that included everything about batteries it would take a week to read and would double the size of the forums (besides taking a couple of years to compile and proof read). I consider IR an important enough subject to bring it to peeps' attention now, and to help them protect themselves.

@scooby, thatguy your points have been taken in, and appreciated. There will be some information included, but I'm already having to restrict myself. And I have to admit I'll have to research a little further myself, it's something I've been ignoring myself

I'm not being flippant about it, just realistic. I will probably include some links to the Battery University with regards some of the tougher material.

[Ripshod]

May 24, 2015 9:39:08 GMT kreed said:

So I'm thinking that these batteries may be ok......IF.....we recognise they are probably 20A batteries.

Ripshod - I have 4 of these on the way........do you have testing kit?

I could send you 2 of them.

I've already tested 2 samples and got the poor results I did.

The point is not the actual results, you may well have a couple of cells less than 30 milliohms - all well and good. The point is the consistency, and the lottery that is buying these AWTs (quoted spec better than 80milliohms, my best result 72milliohms, Norberts best 40milliohms).

My battery produces nearly twice the internal heat of Norbert's.

If you want a true measurement I'll do it. In the interests of science I'll cover postage

[Deleted]

No probs

When (if) they arrive (gearbest ) - I'll give you a shout

[Ripshod]

Gearbest??

How about a basic 4-wire tester for less than £20? Just doing some checks regards the accuracy (it's Chinese, with Chinglish instructions) but it's looking good. Even then a simple calibration would simply mean passing a battery to compare results.

[VapingBad]

Good work Ripshod, sorry have just got time at the PC for the first time since you tagged me.

This is a great thread trying to address a tricky subject and of course when re-wrapers do one good battery followed by some poor ones and fakes it makes it even harder. Take Ecolux, I have recommended them as Norbert buys (or seem to) form reliable wholesalers and has after-sales service, while this doesn't always prevent him from offering batteries that are taking the pish with their spec it does make getting a fake extremely unlikely. You could criticise Torchy for not giving much info in the eBay listings, but good after-sales and extremely unlikely to get a fake. This is why I tend to stick to the big brands like Sony, Samsung and LG, I think they all produce their own batteries, but they are consistent and have proven track record.

I use a 4 wire IR tester from FT for £18 IIRC & a charger that tests IR to be able to spot batteries degrading and spot a fake, it is good test when the battery fails, but only part of the picture for a good battery. If you buy a high current battery and the IR is high it is almost certainly a fake, but it could be within limits and be a lower capacity or lower lifetime battery with a similar voltage drop. Even if you have no test equipment you can keep an eye on the battery temperature and if it's getting hot then stop, this includes charging. I asked Torchy a question on UKV last year about IR and battery lifetime and he ignored it, probably as there is no simple always right answer, but you expect it to rise over the lifetime of your battery and by how much varies between batteries. So what I do is test new batteries for capacity and IR after about half a dozen cycles, keep the results in a spread sheet that I can use to check them against later, the only batteries that have own out on me are Efeat18350s as I have a lot of 18650s and rotate them so get more than a year. Also from have a lot of recycled laptop batteries (never used for vaping!) capacity is a better test of health than IR, but only IR will be a guide to how much current they can provide.

Charging and lifetime: this is not as simple as it sounds and I have read research where charging some Li batteries at a high rate increases their life, as although the chemical reactions are a little more severe they took less time and did less damage. This was just one paper where they took loads of batteries and charged them at specific rates to different state of charge and them took slices from them and looked at them at a molecular level to see how the charge rate affected them. Personal I don't go over 60% of the manufactures fast charge rate. EG some fast charges rates VTC4, 25R = 4 A, Panan NCR18350B 3400 mAh 3.4 A (I charge these at 2 A mostly), but Pana CGR18650CH = 2.15 A (I always charge these at 1 A)The CGR are a high current battery and the NCR is not, but for charging they are the opposite because of the capacity difference and C ratings. But again heat is the first thing you should watch for, if it's getting hot stop.

[Ripshod]

The issue of internal heat has always been a concern of mine, and as I've seen the IR of high discharge cells rise it's becoming even more so. A cell that feels just slightly warm could be a lot hotter at the point the chemistry (and the damage) is happening. We don't often have direct access to feel for this heat either, the construction of newer mods is making the access time a lot longer - giving time for the heat to dissipate into the mod's case.

It's a 'can of worms' I've opened isn't it? But the hidden benefit from all this will be a cross reference of GOOD rewraps, after all there are some good cells hidden out there (take the purple efest 35Amp).

For a lot of it I'll be taking results from reliable testers, including my own results where I can (I can't buy them all). It's one thing referring to a database, or a list of numbers, but actual results can vary greatly from specs, and not always for the worse.

May 24, 2015 22:48:04 GMT VapingBad said:

I use a 4 wire IR tester from FT for £18 IIRC & a charger that tests IR to be able to spot batteries degrading and spot a fake, it is good test when the battery fails, but only part of the picture for a good battery.

That's the one I've been looking into, only found it on FT late last night, seems very reliable. But I've only read that, so I ordered. i'm already looking into uprating the output to 45Watts for 10Amp testing.

And it's good to know I'm not the only one keeps a database of my batteries

[VapingBad]

Here is an English translation of the manual to the one I have Ripshod

[tomj777]

It seems to me that a device for us vaping hobbyists which could test the internal resistance of batteries and thus determine how healthy they are would be a boon to us, especially those who are playing <0.5 ohms.
Is such a beastie on the market within a consumer price range?

[VapingBad]

May 25, 2015 15:09:49 GMT tomj777 said:

It seems to me that a device for us vaping hobbyists which could test the internal resistance of batteries and thus determine how healthy they are would be a boon to us, especially those who are playing <0.5 ohms.
Is such a beastie on the market within a consumer price range?

I have one that comes as a kit from FT, but you do need to find an extra connection or solder 2 of the wires from the battery cradle to the main unit, I uses a couple of PC Mother Board switch pin sockets.  It is USB powered so with a power bank it is portable, you can chose 100 mA steps for the capacity tests.  Here is a link to an English translation of the manual and links to the parts: main board, battery cradle & case, there is a 12 V version of the board, it should be about £20.  I can bring mine to the next London meet if you want to see what they are like.
 

[Ripshod]

I've gone for the 12Volt version, the usb powered one shouldn't be powered by a PC so it's no real benefit with that option, plus I've loads of 12V adapters all over the place. I've a couple of fans coming from ebay too, one's a spare.

Little question VapingBad. I can't see anywhere if the IR test is AC or DC, I assume it'll be DC?

[VapingBad]

May 25, 2015 19:55:13 GMT Ripshod said:

I've gone for the 12Volt version, the usb powered one shouldn't be powered by a PC so it's no real benefit with that option, plus I've loads of 12V adapters all over the place. I've a couple of fans coming from ebay too, one's a spare.

Little question VapingBad. I can't see anywhere if the IR test is AC or DC, I assume it'll be DC?

I always power it from a power bank , they are the same except for a very crude step-up board on the power input, I should really get a fan I think I have every other size in my salvage fan box, but they are OK at 2 A without apparently and was not planing high current tests myself.

Pulsed DC IR testing link, so the best of both worlds as battery sag has less effect than a straight DC test and give more repeatable results.

[hijack]

May 23, 2015 18:22:01 GMT Ripshod said:

Great suggestion re the vendors guide. hijack has already done a buying guide, I hope to expand that and include it, er..... later

Hi Ripshod I havnt fallen off the edge of the world, but i have fallen behind with the battery buying guide , and pretty much anything that has appeared over the last 9 months.
Only this last month returned to forum to see whats new, and have a read.

Which Batteries you use is a subject that should be high on priority for vapers, as we are the ones who are likely to use them to the specified limits, and One build to the next may have us demanding more Power from them than previously. (so those limits should be 'as stated')

As you well know, this misrepresentation has been going on for quite a while, and was the reason I gathered up all the data i could at the time and wrote the guide (which is by now hopelessly out of date).

I think rewriting the guide is a great idea and needs to be done, so that its up to date.
Although Ive not been around that much, Im sure that one of the most asked questions is still, 'What battery should i be using?'

As soon as i see your guide posted ill ask that my old guide be deleted.
I look forward to reading it, so as i know what to replace my old puprle Efest 35A   with. I need some 'everyday use' replacements. 

[Deleted]

I've wondered a few times over the months where you'd gone hijack Good to see you posting again.

[hijack]

@scooby
I got distracted by the work i was doing, and was spending so much time working at the computer, it was the last place i wanted to sit and relax.(the computer not the forum)
I haven't bought a single vaping item since the 'Rose group buy'

I hadn't started smoking again if that's what you all thought.

Its good to see all the names i reconise , still here