AAE-C Battery Power Guide - Discussion Thread

[Ripshod]

Wizardry is where many peeps go wrong. I value your input hijack, raising some questions others aren't asking

No 'dark ages' to it, unless you want to step back about 10 years

[hijack]

Jun 5, 2015 15:23:32 GMT Ripshod said:

It's not okay. That's the point.

I want to list batteries that CAN be used at the limits with no harm. Of course there will always be peeps that can fry a VTC5, but with an IR of (typically) 0.013 Ohms it's a whole lot harder to fry a VTC that say a 35Amp 2600mAh (clue there) AWT.


(HIJACKS EDIT: YES IT LOOKS THAT OLD LG HAS APPEARED IN DIFFERENT FORM)

I'm saddened by such batteries being recommended for vapers, when the companies supplying them are only interested in profit (I recall I mention this elsewhere on the forum).

We can't advise 'idiots' but we have to be careful how we label peeps as such. At the end of the day they are only going on the information provided by peeps such as you and me.

And so I stand up and speak!! There isn't a single battery in my 18650 list that has an IR(DC) over 0.025 Ohms (rated and tested). That includes all the relables

No I'm with you on those scores above. 

You Know me Rip I would be the first to jump in saying 'you dont wanna do that with that battery' 
In the last 6 months we have seen high power regulated mods with temperature control, so YES I do feel a bit like I'm still living in the dark ages.
Working out the effects of those combined  is beyond me, so I'll leave that to those 'in the know' and stick with my battery in a tube for now.

Good work Rip, keep it up. I'm sure i can ask more question even it its just to get myself up too speed. 

[Ripshod]

Where these batteries fall apart is when they're used with a mod such as a Provari or a Smok M50/65. All too soon there will be 'low battery'/'weak battery' or some such warning.

That is where I approve of such mods, they take care of the user (you and me) rather than pure profit. They actually measure the battery's voltage under load, something which should definitely be encouraged

[hijack]

Jun 5, 2015 15:43:09 GMT Ripshod said:

Where these batteries fall apart is when they're used with a mod such as a Provari or a Smok M50/65. All too soon there will be 'low battery'/'weak battery' or some such warning.

That is where I approve of such mods, they take care of the user (you and me) rather than pure profit. They actually measure the battery's voltage under load, something which should definitely be encouraged

Its good to see that their has been progression on that front.

[demondog13]

Ripshod, have not seen these on the list, Efest IMR18500 1100 v2, red, button top.

[VapingBad]

Doing a fine job Ripshod and nice to see you active again hijack

[hijack]

Thanks VapingBad Its been good to come back and have a chat with peeps and say HELLO. Have to admit, it's taken me best part of 2 weeks to work out what a Lemo was. 'Whats that all About?'
Anyway, off to see if I made an arse of myself last night after having a few bevvies and ranting on about M****S*** and their OS.
Thats probably what the rest of these tag's are for.

[markm]

Jun 5, 2015 8:28:45 GMT Ripshod said:

Jun 5, 2015 7:29:47 GMT hijack said:

Thats Good Work Ripshod.
Like that you are listing The Power and resistance capabilities of each battery.
Am i right in saying you've accounted for some 'headroom' so that the battery is not stressing to much?

I have for regulated mods. I don't think headroom for mechs is too important with the batteries listed so far - as soon as ypu fire a low ohm coil the battery's volts will immediately drop, kind of giving it's own headroom. You have a concern? Better to discuss it here

With Mech mods the measured voltage under load should not be used
to calculate the amps being pulled. 
The battery still puts out it's full voltage, you are only seeing the volts that get used by the coil.
he remaining volts have been consumed by resistances in the mod, normally the switch.
The lower the coil resistance the higher the loss to the other resistances, it works as a ratio.
The point is that you should measure the voltage at the battery, not under load, as that
is what the battery will dispense, although you will not see all of it at a single point inthe circuit.

[Ripshod]

Jun 5, 2015 21:56:40 GMT demondog13 said:

Ripshod, have not seen these on the list, Efest IMR18500 1100 v2, red, button top.

Added, thank you

[Ripshod]

Jun 6, 2015 9:09:26 GMT markm said:

Jun 5, 2015 8:28:45 GMT Ripshod said:

I have for regulated mods. I don't think headroom for mechs is too important with the batteries listed so far - as soon as ypu fire a low ohm coil the battery's volts will immediately drop, kind of giving it's own headroom. You have a concern? Better to discuss it here

With Mech mods the measured voltage under load should not be used
to calculate the amps being pulled. 
The battery still puts out it's full voltage, you are only seeing the volts that get used by the coil.
he remaining volts have been consumed by resistances in the mod, normally the switch.
The lower the coil resistance the higher the loss to the other resistances, it works as a ratio.
The point is that you should measure the voltage at the battery, not under load, as that
is what the battery will dispense, although you will not see all of it at a single point inthe circuit.

Wrong.

Take a HE4 as an example. We already know the safe continuous draw is 20Amps.

Now say we try to pull that 20Amps from a fresh HE4 with a 0.21Ohm coil. As soon as we do the terminal voltage will drop to 3.84Volts (typ), giving a current draw of 18.3Amps. Add to that the resistance of the metals in the mod, the joints, any wires, a mosfet. Add the fast drain for the first 200mAh or so and you're soon vaping around 16Amps. As the HE4 is a good quality cell I'd say that was safe.

It's about the combined effect of everything that's happening inside the cell. The simple maths is fine, but if you look under the skin chemistry and physics rule.

As the battery is in series with the switch, body, wiring and coil it becomes a part of the overall resistance of the circuit.

[markm]

I still say voltage drop under load has no effect on what you battery is being asked to do.

Take a 4.20 charged battery, measure the voltage drop at the coil at 0.42
That's a 10% drop.
As we know voltages are shared between resistances we now know that
10% of the voltage has been consumed elsewhere, mostly the switch.
So if we know the coil resistance is 1 ohm we can now calculate the switch resistance
To be 0.1ohms. The battery remains at 4.2 volts and is splitting it's voltage across
A combined resistance of 1.1 ohms.
I agree that voltage drop is a way you can understand what work you asking of the cell
But it the drop load voltage is dangerous to use to calculate your safe amp limit.

[Ripshod]

batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_does_internal_resistance_affect_performance
batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/rising_internal_resistance

And a calculator: hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/dcex6.html

Of course if we want to make it more difficult we could throw in the various other resistances. However it's easier to consider them as negligible because as they rise the current draw will be reduced even more.

[hijack]

Jun 6, 2015 9:09:26 GMT markm said:

Jun 5, 2015 8:28:45 GMT Ripshod said:

I have for regulated mods. I don't think headroom for mechs is too important with the batteries listed so far - as soon as ypu fire a low ohm coil the battery's volts will immediately drop, kind of giving it's own headroom. You have a concern? Better to discuss it here

With Mech mods the measured voltage under load should not be used
to calculate the amps being pulled. 
The battery still puts out it's full voltage, you are only seeing the volts that get used by the coil.
he remaining volts have been consumed by resistances in the mod, normally the switch.
The lower the coil resistance the higher the loss to the other resistances, it works as a ratio.
The point is that you should measure the voltage at the battery, not under load, as that
is what the battery will dispense, although you will not see all of it at a single point inthe circuit.

I can see this is going to be debated much more.
Is it the case then, that the voltage drop seen in a battery under load is a reaction to the stress of said load and the drop in voltage does not diminish the stress that is placed upon it and only serves to maintain same level of stress?

EDIT: SRY so slow putting my thoughts to paper my Question may have already been answered. I need to have a read first

[markm]

By deducting the voltage drop, you are effectively saying that the battery didn't have to do that work.

[hijack]

Jun 6, 2015 9:37:57 GMT markm said:

By deducting the voltage drop, you are effectively saying that the battery didn't have to do that work.

Thats what i was thinking. Its like saying 'you dont have worry what load is placed on a battery because its self regulating.'

Ill have to read those papers before going any farther. 

There must be a point when the battery says 'This is too much to bear'