Why is Juul worth $16 billion? It’s more like a cigarette th

[domesticextremist]

Why is Juul worth $16 billion? It’s more like a cigarette than you think

Interesting article.

It seems to show that the nic salts replicate that cigarette hit that is so addictive and habit forming compared to the gentler, slower acting 'freebase' nic that we currently use.
It looks like big tobacco has devised a way to get everybody back on the treadmill of repeat purchase, pre-packed nicotine hits. That's why their start-up is worth so much. They have crack cocaine of the vaping world.
This is likely to give a ton of ammo to the anti-smoking, "one more ban from nirvana" safety Sallies too.
Not good.

[Get Off My Cloud]

Honestly i don't really give a monkeys about them being addictive like cigs, nobody ever died from addiction it's the thing they are addicted to which kills them so unless they show nic salts cause serious disease or some health impact comparable to tobacco then i'm not gonna stress about nic salts being addictive.
It might even be a benefit for smokers to start vaping with nic salts rather than regular base, the more instant hit should help them from needing to dual fuel meaning they're off the cancer sticks completely quicker.

[DaveJ]

Bunch of thoughts.

But .... it seems that "addiction" is being cast as bad in and of itself for nicotine by naysayers. Yet, as Get Off My Cloud above says, that doesn't actually make any comment if the addiction has actual harm - to the person or society.

I am addicted to caffeine. I'll suffer if supply is withheld. As I'll bet many of those naysayers are. Does that addiction trouble them? It certainly doesn't me.

[domesticextremist]

Jul 5, 2018 5:53:23 GMT Get Off My Cloud said:

Honestly i don't really give a monkeys about them being addictive like cigs, nobody ever died from addiction it's the thing they are addicted to which kills them so unless they show nic salts cause serious disease or some health impact comparable to tobacco then i'm not gonna stress about nic salts being addictive.
It might even be a benefit for smokers to start vaping with nic salts rather than regular base, the more instant hit should help them from needing to dual fuel meaning they're off the cancer sticks completely quicker.

From the article:

But young people do use Juuls, according to a wave of reporting from the New York Times and New Yorker. Even though tobacco use has dropped overall since 2011 for teens and adolescents, there’s still a “disturbingly high number of youth who are using e-cigarettes and vaping products,” the FDA says in a statement. And the FDA has demanded that Juul Labs Inc. hand over details about its products.

The puritans are already getting uppity, itching for something more to ban.

[domesticextremist]

Jul 5, 2018 8:16:57 GMT DaveJ said:

et, as Get Off My Cloud above says, that doesn't actually make any comment if the addiction has actual harm - to the person or society.

I am addicted to caffeine. I'll suffer if supply is withheld. As I'll bet many of those naysayers are. Does that addiction trouble them? It certainly doesn't me.

Me either, but hardline smoking cessation 'professionals' from our health service can often be heard in the media saying that total abstinence is the only sure fire way of reducing harm from smoking.
They're going to have a field day with this and cause us vapers more heartache than even TPD managed.

[DaveJ]

Jul 5, 2018 11:30:25 GMT domesticextremist said:

... but hardline smoking cessation 'professionals' from our health service can often be heard in the media saying that total abstinence is the only sure fire way of reducing harm from smoking.
They're going to have a field day with this and cause us vapers more heartache than even TPD managed.

That "quit or die" attitude is the one that prevails here.

[domesticextremist]

Stop 'super-cool' e-cigarette from taking off among kids, UK told
Well that didn't take long.
The article, of course, omits to make the distinction between regular vaping and nic salts, focussing instead on the coolness of the device and how it is attractive to "the kids".

[djs]

Sort of rant ALERT


"It's more like a cigarette than you think"

Yup... maybe.

I absolutely DETEST Juul and this whole non-refillable pod market.

It is basically E-Lites all over again, chaining people financially to some product that is way, way, way more expensive than it needs to be.

3 comments;

1) if it gets people off smokes - fair play.
2) if it keeps people tied to Juul in the same way they were tied to Benson and Hedges so they couldn't feed their children properly or pay their heating bill - that is NOT acceptable.
3) if it sends people to other vape products (which it is in the US - MASSIVELY) then it's a win / win.

I'd prefer a win / lose with Juul losing but hey.... a few more billionaires in the world who avoid tax and don't give a penny to the countries they live in by using overpaid accountants - well that's just the way it it.

The 'tax man' would happily tax a trades-person to death, maybe a man who smokes and feeds 4 kids.... if they decide he's underpaid, he gets a nasty bill.

If millionaires do it.... the are given TV shows and made Presidents.

That is the truth of the world. Money wins. People lose. Whole countries lose. Hell, we could probably employ 1,000 more nurses and re-open a few village hospitals if Amazon and Costa paid the proper tax.

We could probably solve homelessness, poverty and education in the UK if they ALL paid the proper tax.

[DaveJ]

Don't hold back djs, say what you really think!

Jul 28, 2018 7:42:37 GMT djs said:

...


I absolutely DETEST Juul and this whole non-refillable pod market.

Make some room up on that soapbox, will ya? Seriously - I pretty much agree with all you said.

But in particular, the bit about tie in with special purpose, non-refillable "pods". I reckon they are bad. But I see the same concept in other areas - also bad for the customer. Like, say, inkjet printers. Those damned replacement ink tanks. Special purpose, non-refillable things that tie you into the one source for replacements. Who charges way beyond anything reasonable for the few drops of liquid they contain. Hell, they all but give you the printer (often with half sized tanks) to tie you into the high cost consumable replacement ink cartridges. They are not the only ones doing this either.

I see no difference with proprietary vaping pod systems. The business - Juul - sees a way to maximise long term profits and, from their point of view, it is a pretty sound business strategy. Just that from the consumer's point of view, it absolutely sucks.

What can you do? Except don't buy into it, and caution others about it.

All that aside.... on the point about Juul being attractive to kids. Well, yeah, why so surprised? That had to happen, didn't it? That's what kids do. Experiment with stuff - and especially with stuff their parents told them not to. That's part of growing up and learning. Didn't we all (well, most of us....) do the smoking at school thing when young? Now, being pragmatic about it all, isn't it better that the kids experiment with something as relatively harmless as vaping rather than play with cigarettes (*) - or things far worse? Yeah, yeah - I do get that the "naysayers" won't accept that pragmatic approach though.


* even aside from the disproved notion of vaping being a "gateway" into smoking.


All that said - I still stand by my original comment way back that an easy to use and affordable "vape system" that removes much of the current "faff" is a good thing for those trying to find their way out from smoking.

[oldleatherlungs]

These court actions might reduce Juul's value Vapers Sue Juul

[djs]

Jul 28, 2018 9:38:12 GMT oldleatherlungs said:

These court actions might reduce Juul's value Vapers Sue Juul

Yup... well 50mg might do this to you.

Personally I think it's b**** but you can see where some lawyers are coming from.

If vaping 3mg or 6mg is almost non-addictive because the strength is so low and vaping 50mg is definitely addictive because, well... it's 50mg.... then maybe they will win.

However, I can't see it finishing Juul....

(Although that would make me laugh a teeny weeny bit...)

[DaveJ]

Ummm ... interesting.

As a proximate result of Defendants’ misconduct, D.P. is addicted to nicotine, putting him at serious risk for life-long health problems...

So being addicted to nicotine puts someone at "serious risk for life long health problems" ?

Really? Nicotine in isolation causes health problems? Can somebody offer some evidence to that end? We here all know it's not the nic, but the delivery method that provides the risk of health problems. *sigh* yeah, I know - you guys already know this.

Which is aside from the question of documented difficulties in getting NON-smokers addicted to nic. Unless the Juul "nic salts" has some bearing on that particular issue. Can't say there, as I'm very unfamiliar with the nic-salts thing.

Yes, this does look bad for Juul. And, by association, for vaping in general.