doodlebug
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 21, 2013 22:55:53 GMT
Possible a little, yes, but this is about finding a compromise position. We have tried to leave enough room for the DIYers, despite the fact that it does limit it slightly. (My brother's not exactly thrilled about it, since Decadent Vapours do 54mg base for mixing, but even he recognises the importance of the compromise.) Again, though, if our proposal does not reflect what you want, tell them what you want. It really is that simple! You never know, they might allow it to go higher, and we certainly wouldn't talk them down from it!  Cheers, Katherine |
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doodlebug
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 21, 2013 17:51:50 GMT
You and ECITA have done a great job so far and so has everyone who has emailed the MP's and MEP's, but as you say there is still a way to go yet. so for those who haven't emailed there MEP's/MP do so NOW!!! it is making a difference so if you haven't done it do it! By the time this effects you it will be too late to change and you'll end up wishing you had. For those who have emailed there MEP's/MP do so again. Raise points from recent events with them, engage them if you can. If they don't reply, so what? At least they will be aware that this is an issue that needs careful and responsible consideration. My MEP's and MP have had several emails from me and I've only had replies from them on my first one. It's not deterred me though. I want them to know that I really do give a monkeys about this and I won't go away. Right now to watch the IMCO meeting....I'm a sucker for punishment!  Couldn't agree more! It is the vapers who are the stakeholders who really matter in this, and we can only go so far in fighting for that. Please, please keep the pressure on. If you can, don't just email, but send posted letters - these are FAR harder for them to ignore. Push them to have face-to-face meetings with you. We are tabling amendments to propose that the limit be raised to 5% (50mg/ml) but leaving it in the TPD, since this is an easy win-win for what's on the table right now - and they are beginning to indicate that they might go for it. If that would do for you, then please support it; if not, just tell them what YOU want. We must ensure that the CONSUMERS have a voice - this is about life and death for every one of us who vapes, after all. Cheers, Katherine |
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doodlebug
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 21, 2013 17:11:34 GMT
Thanks, Womble. We're trying our best. |
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doodlebug
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 21, 2013 15:42:53 GMT
Hi, all, We managed to split up today and cover two Committee's meetings, discussing the TPD: Tom attended the ENVI one (linked here www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-liv...COMMITTEE-ENVI) while I trotted down two floors and sat in the IMCO (Internal Market) Committee meeting, which was discussing it at the same time. (I'm just catching up on the ENVI meeting at the moment, but will try to come back and add a link to the IMCO one and add it here.) ... and here it is: www.europarl.europa.eu/ep-live/en/committees/video?event=20130321-0900-COMMITTEE-IMCOIt is very interesting to see how the conversation is beginning to change. There is still a lot of work to do, but we have a much clearer idea of what we need to do, and how to go about it, so I am confident that we can continue to make good progress. We also met with one of the MEPs this afternoon, and they are tabling an amendment to put forward our suggestion to raise the limit to 5% (50mg/ml). And on it goes.... There is a huge political will to get the TPD through in this Parliament. We are taking the position that we want to help the Parliament achieve this, by suggesting an appropriate amendment to the level proposed for ecigs, which would result in a win-win for everyone. Yes, it is a compromise, but we believe it fixes it enough for everyone to remain well supplied with the products they want, as well as keeping the legitimate industry alive and well to supply us all. As the week has progressed, we have seen a definite change in the tenor of the conversations - for the better. Even some of the hard-liners are beginning to recognise that the proposal cannot achieve the desired outcome, so I am optimistic. We shall be returning to the UK tomorrow, and will be keeping the pressure on to get the necessary work done. Cheers, Katherine |
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 21, 2013 5:35:05 GMT
Last night, we had a most enlightening dinner meeting with a Brussels insider (who will remain anonymous for now), who we will be working with to ensure we are able to get our message across effectively to the right people as this process continues to grind along. There is still an enormous amount of work to do, and we shall be doing everything we can to keep everybody vaping the way they want to - and yes, that includes flavourings!!! Today there is another meeting, which is public, so hopefully there will be at least audio available. We shall be attending to listen in, and will give an update when we can. One of the buzzwords surrounding this is 'harmonisation', i.e. where everything is harmonised for all the Member States. The fact that there is currently disparity about the levels in various countries (UK 7.5%, France 2%) is precisely why we are asking them to harmonise that bit - at 5%. The vast majority of the regulatory instruments which apply to ecigs as consumer products is already very well harmonised - far more so than medicines regulation, actually, so that's an easier sell. I remain optimistic. Yes, there is an enormous amount of work ahead, but we shall continue to do it, and I still believe that common sense (and frankly, self-preservation for the EU) will win the day in the end, and that we can achieve an acceptable outcome for ecigs. I find inclusion in the TPD counter-intuitive, but as long as the level gets up to something we can all live with, then why not? At least it avoids the risk of a specific ecigs Directive for now. (Ultimately, I suppose, one might be needed, but we are too young as a sector at this stage.) They have already recognised that reclassification as a tobacco product is not a viable option. Think about it: just as medicines reclassification would drag tobacco cigarettes in, kicking and screaming (which NOBODY wants to do anyway), reclassification as a tobacco product on the basis of the tenuous content of nicotine would drag NRT down that route.... Can you see anyone taking that idea seriously? They have already ruled that out, I believe - even at the Commission level, and we heard that from Parliament too. Keep calm and carry on vaping, I reckon. Cheers, Katherine |
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 20, 2013 9:36:59 GMT
Hi, all,
I am so sorry not to have been able to get back to you all before now, but I have been having major problems getting online - incredibly frustrating!!!
I have (finally!) been able to download the audio, and am listening to it now. I agree with most of what everyone has said (and we had a few choice words for Charlie after the flavourings thing, I can tell you!) but I don't believe this fight is lost - not by a long way. We shall continue to correspond with Linda McAvan, and all the other MEPs, to emphasise the need to increase the level, and to further elucidate the ISE auditing programme, and how it can help to solve the perceived problems. I still believe (resolutely, even into our 4th year of doing this!) that sensible, proportionate decisions are possible, and that we can help them get this right.
We have some other meetings this week, and the consumers are having their meeting today (Wed), with at least the largest German consumer organisation attending. (They have already indicated that they are broadly putting forward the same message as us, so hopefully, there will be some alignment there.)
I also agree that it is very disappointing not to have better agreement across the industry reps. We have been doing what we do for a very long time, and it is enormously frustrating to have people coming in at the eleventh hour, apparently just to throw spanners in the works! Nonetheless, I still believe that our common sense approach, combined with the clearly delineated solution we are offering them, can win the day.
It's interesting to note that the one point on which all the industry reps agree is that these are not medicines. If nothing else, I am certain that the Parliament must have got that message!
Lots and lots more work to be done....
Happy vaping, one and all!
Cheers,
Katherine
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doodlebug
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 19, 2013 13:34:36 GMT
Hi, all,
Just to let you know that we have arrived in Brussels, and will be heading out for the meeting very soon.
I'll do my best to provide regular updates in this thread as the week progresses, but tonight will be the 'main gig', I suppose, since I shall be able to provide some feedback about how the meeting went with the European Parliament.
Catch youse later...
Cheers,
Katherine
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 16, 2013 8:31:42 GMT
You're right, greendollar, but they can only get away with things if they are not directly challenged, within set time limits (as set out very precisely in law), by someone with the resources and the energy to fight it. I have no experience with illegal wars, arms embargos, kidnapping or torture (honest - no idea! Really! No children locked in the cellar with me being tortured - I promise!), but I do know that there are Courts who are willing to listen, and who have the authority to take this on, and we have excellent legal teams and the resources in place to take it to the next level if we have to.
I am increasingly more and more convinced that we are not going to have to, but we will not sit back and watch if we are required to take it further.
I really don't believe the system is as corrupt as some like to think; I reckon it's worse than that: I think it has far more to do with ignorance, which frankly I find far more scary!
Cheers,
Katherine
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 16, 2013 0:58:34 GMT
Thanks Mark. We'll do our best...  |
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 16, 2013 0:45:55 GMT
Hi, all, Sorry not to have kept in touch, or even updated you about the blog, but it's been a pretty mad week! We have been locked away in the cellar, preparing for next week's meeting at the European Parliament, but some rather interesting legal research has uncovered some new indications that we are definitely on a winning ticket as vapers. There are several new posts, including our rather snazzy booklet, all of which are available from our website as well as on the blog. So if you're interested in knowing what is happening with the regulations, the legal position, or just want to catch up on the latest gossip surrounding the Tobacco Products Directive, please do have a look at these posts: www.ecita.org.uk/blog/?p=464www.ecita.org.uk/blog/?p=474www.ecita.org.uk/blog/?p=478Rather than make you wade your way through all of the above, I will just cut to the chase and let you know that, according to various case precedents, and a particularly impressive and insightful Counsel Opinion from the Advocate General (from 2005), it would be illegal for governments to reclassify electronic cigarettes as medicines. I hope this news will help everyone to have a good, relaxed and happy vaping weekend, and we shall update you once we've been to the European Parliament next week. Cheers, Katherine |
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 8, 2013 8:41:56 GMT
Every win makes it harder for them to proceed, Kibbster. I am hopeful that this will add weight to our NOT needing to pursue too many future legal actions, but we'll see....
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 8, 2013 8:01:52 GMT
Hi, all, Sorry not to have updated sooner, but yesterday was a bit of a mad one! The Estonian court yesterday ruled in favour of Elites (who brought the case), confirming that electronic cigarettes cannot be classified as medicinal products, and the government was ordered to pay costs. ECITA provided research support to the legal team, who were absolutely superb, and the tireless efforts of the whole team should be commended. Another win for vaping! Cheers, Katherine |
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 8, 2013 7:58:35 GMT
Shall I pick you up on the way, Mark? Thanks for the support, guys. We're working hard to prepare for this, as you can imagine, and will be publishing our position statement (which effectively sets out what we will be putting to them) on the blog as soon as the ECITA members have approved it. I have no desire to be a politician. I'm just a vaper like the rest! Don't plan on letting them get away with anything, mind... Cheers, Katherine |
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Post by doodlebug on Mar 2, 2013 0:26:25 GMT
I've been glued to the 'public' EU presentation today and e-cigs were mentioned by a number of Committee members. The main reason for objecting to banning any useful strength was that they can help smokers quit. Borgia said that 2 mg in 0.5 ml was the same as the nicotine from a cigarette (note to Borgia - we don't 'smoke' one in 5 minutes) I'm calling him Borgia as the Linda who spoke for the TPD called the one non-pharma, non-ANTZ 'stakeholder' a Goliath because he was the sole tobacco rep. No ecig or snus reps. Why they are dangerous by Linda Madwatsit. 1.They irratate the throat 2. We don't know what's in them 3. Some contain irresponsibly high quantities of nicotine 4. If you have a bottle in the fridge you could accidentally drink it 5. Users have no control over the amount of nicotine so it will build up in their bodies until the lose consceuosness from a nicotine ID. Also mentioned, the 2 UK reports expected soon (MHRA and NICE) which will regualte them as medicines. I think what that answer was anyway. Tomorow's meeting is secret and includes the 1st vote. I know that ecigs with any nicotine are banned in Canada, or so some say, and Canada has apparently had a big drop in smoking, but Canadians buy theirs from the USA. In fact the 3 countries named as having under 20% smokers, Australia, parts of America and Canade, I think all have lively ecig markets. On all of those points, what's the chance of getting someone with more than two brain cells to smash their "arguments" to pieces? I mean really, how can we even fight this level of stupidity and desperation without resorting to tattooing a large phallus on their foreheads? Well that's what I'd do anyway, but that's probably why they didn't invite me lol That's an interesting idea, Kibbster! Do you want me to try it? Seriously, I agree that Monday was a farce, and I will NOT be assimilated by the Borg, but they have actually invited us to a public meeting, specifically to discuss ecigs, so maybe, just maybe, they will pay attention. We're hoping that Clive Bates will also be allowed to attend, since he is an independent (of the industry) expert. Will keep you posted. Cheers, Katherine (ECITA) |
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Post by doodlebug on Feb 28, 2013 23:21:15 GMT
I submitted a complaint to Ofcom about allowing Dr Death... sorry, Dr Nathanson to run her mouth off with no balanced opposing view represented from a suitably qualified expert (you know, an 'ex' is a has been, and a 'spurt' is a drip under pressure?): stakeholders.ofcom.org.uk/tell-u...gramme-epgHere's what I've submitted: The article on electronic cigarettes featured some dangerously ill-informed statements from Dr Vivienne Nathanson of the British Medical Association. It was littered with inaccuracies, including inaccurate and misleading statements about the safety profile of electronic cigarettes. The BBC failed to provide any balance or challenge to Dr Nathanson's reference to debunked American testing from 2009, or the fact that her advice would lead the million UK smokers who have made the switch to ecigs to return to smoking - a shocking public health tragedy, were it allowed to happen. As Professor John Britton told the BBC just last week: "If all the smokers in Britain stopped smoking cigarettes and started smoking e- cigarettes we would save 5 million deaths in people who are alive today. It’s a massive potential public health prize.” The BBC must not be allowed to broadcast such biased, inaccurate and dangerous articles with tragically ill-informed 'experts' such as Dr Nathanson. I trust that Ofcom will ask the BBC to broadcast an apology, and to ensure balance is provided in better-informed future broadcasts. Thank you. Also, Matt from Gluggles sent his own in: I am contacting you to complain about the dangerous information broadcast about electronic cigarettes on the You & Yours programme on Radio 4 on 28/2/13. The article contained incorrect information from Dr Vivienne Nathanson of the British Medical Association which was left unchallenged. Her views on e-cigs run against the academic consensus, and people like Professor John Britton, who heads the Tobacco group on the Royal College of Physicians has said that an e-cig is about as harmful as a cup of coffee and can save 5 million lives in the UK alone. The FDA study from 2009 that Dr Nathanson cited has been widely discredited - as well as the fact that e-cigs today have changed dramatically from those on sale in 2009. This feature was dangerously misleading. If it has disuaded smokers from switching from smoking to e-cigarettes it could be responsible for them becoming seriusly ill as a result. I hope enough vapers and public health experts will complain to the media on every occasion when this happens. They MUST report accurately, and we must hold them to it. The alternative is just too dangerous! Cheers, Katherine |
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