NHS e mail and my reply

[Phoenix .]

Had the usual e mail, can we help you to stop smoking please help in our survey.

Filled in all my details then in the comments box, asked them why they are not promoting vaping, gave them all the facts as I know them and suggested they put up posters in Dr's surgery's drawing the publics attention to the other alternative way to cut down or stop smoking altogether, and they should also ensure that the Doctor's have all the information to encourage their patients to seek help at the surgery.
The Nurse could also be educated into giving advice .
Gave them permission to contact me via e mail should they so wish.

I am on a crusade to educate the public, handed out loads of leaflets and cards I get from Jason , at the shopping centre tonight, almost everyone took it and read it and saved it, not put it in the bin.

[Perpetua]

Good luck Phoenix . . . the general public will be easier to educate/enlighten than some in the Medical profession I'd suspect.

[Brian]

And Jason is wringing his hands!

What colour roller is he getting next year?

and will river be in the shop while he`s

##

[Anne (fuzzy)]

Well done Phoenix

[hissie]

My opinion is the pharmaceutical giants make a lot of money out of nicotine patches ect. So, I don't think any GP practice is going to promote vaping, unless there is a substantial amount of money to be made.

The other side to this is: if the pharmaceutical companies get involved with vaping, then our hobby would probably become very expensive.

[alvoram]

The minute doctors start promoting it, then it will have to be licensed and tested for medical purposes. Not sure if this is a good thing or not.

[hissie]

I don't think it would be a good thing. I rekon vaping would end up being more expensive than smoking.

[alvoram]

yeh that's the obvious down side Hissie... But thinking completely unselfishly (I love a bargain ) for those still stuck on cigs, but concerned about the safety of ecigs, they would be reassured, and if it helps more people get off the cigs, then it can only be a good thing surely.... Not only that, but they'd then be able to prescribe it, so would it be too expensive?

[hifistud]

Apr 12, 2012 23:04:36 GMT alvoram said:

The minute doctors start promoting it, then it will have to be licensed and tested for medical purposes. Not sure if this is a good thing or not.

Decidedly a bad thing, and here's why:

1. if e-cigs are medicinalised, then every manufaturer will have to produce, as Intellicig is doing, "refills" with a defined amount of nicotine in them. This is in line with NRT. So, your "dosage" will be (if it's prescribed) dictated to you.

2. Because of 1. above, no e-liquid will be allowed to be sold - it'll be pre-packed "refills" in blister packs, or nothing.

3. Flavours will be severely limited, as each flavour will have to be granted an MA before sale. SO, tobacco, menthol and, erm, that's it, really.

4. Everybody will become a statistic - cos you'll all be on a "quit attempt", and your progress will be charted and followed.

Sod that for a game of soldiers. E-cigs are NOT quitting devices, they're not NRT, and I really wish folks would stop saying they are....

[Anne (fuzzy)]

Not to mention all the sellers going out of business

[alvoram]

Well they are clearly being used as cessation devices by many, and IMO that makes them so, whether they're currently licensed as such or not.

there are just as many reason why it would be a good thing IMO, which is why I am not sure what to think.

1. As I said, it would help more people, by helping those unwilling to trust an unlicensed, unregulated product. And despite what you may think about it not being a cessation device, IMO if a product can save lives, the more it can save, the better.

2. It would mean quality is assured. At the minute whenever we buy liquid, we are putting our trust in the mixer, we don't know what safety procedures they have in place, or what is actually going into the product, as the industry is unregulated. I must make it clear however, that I trust most UK suppliers out there at the minute, but that may not always be the case, and quite rightly so.

3. It would be more widely accepted, I've not heard of any pub chains banning nicorette inhalers, for example.

4. It would be available on prescription. There are people out there who smoke cheap tobacco, that can't afford Ecigs, if they were available on prescription, most people who fall into this bracket would have access to them free of charge.

Also, I could be wrong about this, but I believe it's just prescription only medications (schedule 4i and below) that you can't import without a license, no other NRT falls into this category, so I have no reason to believe Ecigs would either, meaning you could still buy them from elsewhere if you chose to.

I, like many others, started vaping out of curiosity, and to see if I could cut down, but ended up quitting as it was so easy, as I said before, anything that could help other smokers realise the same is only a good thing IMO. I know I'm probably on my own here, and I have my hard hat on

[hifistud]

Apr 13, 2012 0:11:06 GMT alvoram said:

Well they are clearly being used as cessation devices by many, and IMO that makes them so, whether they're currently licensed as such or not.

"Smoking cessation" actually means "nicotine cessation". Unless you get rid of nicotine, you have not quit smoking - relapse is almost inevitable with all forms of NRT - a success rate in the single figure percentage range proves that. What an e-cig does is to replicate everything about smoking except the actual smoke, and it replaces that with a harmless vapour. So, it's not NRT, it's an alternative way to smoke that reduces the risk by oders of magnitude.

there are just as many reason why it would be a good thing IMO, which is why I am not sure what to think.

1. As I said, it would help more people, by helping those unwilling to trust an unlicensed, unregulated product. And despite what you may think about it not being a cessation device, IMO if a product can save lives, the more it can save, the better.

E-juice IS regulated. Just not as a medicine - but read on...

2. It would mean quality is assured. At the minute whenever we buy liquid, we are putting our trust in the mixer, we don't know what safety procedures they have in place, or what is actually going into the product, as the industry is unregulated. I must make it clear however, that I trust most UK suppliers out there at the minute, but that may not always be the case, and quite rightly so.

I would, respectfully, both agree and disagree. Firstly, the issue is not one of trust, it is one of accountability and traceability. I do not "trust" any e-liquid the manufacturer of which is not explicitly stated. Ergo, I "trust" Dekang and Decadent Vapours, Hangsen and one or two others, as I can trace the nicotine and other ingredients back to their respective origins - also, I am well aware of the mixing and safety procedures adopted and practised in each of their respective laboratories. I also "trust" vendors who both do not hide their sources and also have their juices analysed by GCMS labs and publish the findings for all to see.
Under absolutely no circumstances would I use juice from bathtub or kitchen sink mixers. With no disrespect meant to them, they have neither accountability (in general) nor the insurance backup to be able to compensate the user who is inadvertently poisoned by their mistakes - does Box Elder ring any bells?
None of that, however, means that I'd like to see MHRA involvement or licensing - because if that does happen, the point is moot - you'll only be able to buy from foreign sources. In my own case, that's fine - I like and trust Dekang juice...

3. It would be more widely accepted, I've not heard of any pub chains banning nicorette inhalers, for example.

An oft-cited, yet mistaken (in my view) belief. Bottom line is this - the great preponderance of e-cigs out there are of the looky-likey variety, and a pub landlord, no matter whether they're medicine or not, would be unimaginably naive if he didn't think an inebriated smoker would see a red-led equipped white and brown e-cig and think it was OK to light up a real one. I've seen it happen, on more than one occasion. The upshot has almost always been the same - an almost immediate and total ban on e-cigs in that establishment. And you can understand why. Medicinalisation will do nothing to change that.

4. It would be available on prescription. There are people out there who smoke cheap tobacco, that can't afford Ecigs, if they were available on prescription, most people who fall into this bracket would have access to them free of charge.

Tonight, a friend and I did some sums. We both were heavy smokers (proper heavy smokers, not 20 a day men) and our daily marginal costs are under £1, taking batteries, juice and cartos/coils into account. How is that not affordable? What is the current price of a prescription being filled? £7.65, I believe - and you can bet that a prescribed e-cig and refills will be much like viagra - you'll get what the quack thinks you should have, not necessarily what you need/want. Remember, their aim is to get you off nicotine altogether, not to facilitate you carrying on enjoying what the MHRA regards as a harmless drug.

Also, I could be wrong about this, but I believe it's just prescription only medications (schedule 4i and below) that you can't import without a license, no other NRT falls into this category, so I have no reason to believe Ecigs would either, meaning you could still buy them from elsewhere if you chose to.

Unless MHRA institutes a ban order, you're right - you can buy your e-liquid from abroad - but why would you want to? There's a shedload of folks would simply go back to smoking proper ciggies rather than go through all the hassle of ordering two or three weeks in advance of need.

I, like many others, started vaping out of curiosity, and to see if I could cut down, but ended up quitting as it was so easy, as I said before, anything that could help other smokers realise the same is only a good thing IMO. I know I'm probably on my own here, and I have my hard hat on

My hard hat is on too! In my book, if you haven't quit nicotine, you haven't quit. Now, this might upset a few people, but it's true. Were it otherwise, an habitual Heroin smoker (chasing the dragon, it's called) who switched to needles and mainlining, could claim to have quit. And, patently, they haven't.

That's not to say that an e-cig isn't an altogether better prospect than real cigarettes. Of course it is - its risk profile is in the order of a thousand times lower than a real cigarette. But it isn't a medicine. I could, for instance, say that I managed to quit smoking using Diet Coke - by simply swigging a half pint every time I fancied a fag, until I no longer fancied having a fag. Does that make Diet Coke a medicine? Certainly not! And the same applies to e-cigs.

[Scylla]

You did a grand job there, Lil

[Queenie Bee]

There are some really valid points here. I for one switched to vaping out of curiosity and not to stop smoking but in the process quit the cigs. IMO I think the ecig is not only a great alternative to smoking but could potentially be used as a smoking cessation device with or without the nhs approval ! Although in the latter point I feel that this my be a flawed as the psychological aspect of smoking is not taken away but replaced, which in my IMHO is one of the main reasons many of us have been lucky enough to move to vaping as our primary nicotine intake method. I too have concerns of trust with suppliers and quality safety of e juice and only use UK based suppliers and source my supply on recommendations on this forum. So my bottom line in the subject is...
1. Yes it's a good thing to make the public aware of vaping as a great alternative.
2. Make local GP's aware of our method of nicotine replacement and our personal experience.
3. Keep active in promoting educating and being educated on all aspects of vaping and above all play an active roll in getting vaping regulated and officially recognised as a smoking alternative!

[alvoram]

Wow you need sleep, lol....

No smoking cessation means smoking cessation, you can't change the meaning of a term to suit your end of a debate. Even so I said it was a smoking cessation device, just like nicotine gum, inhalers, patches etc. People often carry on using these devices, way past the recommended amount of time, doesn't stop them being classed as smoking cessation devices.

E-juice is not regulated at all, it's packaging is, there is nothing to stop me buying the ingredients now, mixing my own juice, and selling it to people, so long as it has all the right markings on the packaging. That is not a regulated product. The same goes for mods, nothing stops me building a mod now, and selling it, no matter how safe it may or may not be. This also explains my reasoning behind number 2, and why I say it's a matter of trust. Clearly there are large manufacturers, and small ones, I am not going to name names, because personally, I actually trust most of them. But there is a huge difference between a big manufacturer in china, or the UK for that matter, and say, me, making and selling juice, anyone who purchased my juice would be putting trust in me.

Your response to it being more widely accepted seems to assume that they will be white sticks with red led's if licensed, so not sure what to say to that to be honest. But whatever they are, if they were licensed, everybody would know what they were, which would reduce cases of people mistaking them for cigarettes. Although personally I don't think they'll go for the red led white stick combo.... I could be wrong.

There are elderly and disabled people (and jobless people, but we wont go there) out there, on benefits, who currently smoke cheap rolling tobacco, imports, which can be picked up for less than a fiver for 50g, which lasts most smokers longer than a week, even at your very generous £1 a day, that would make ecigs considerably more expensive. Prescriptions are free for most of this group of people. Just as there are for people like us, who work minimum wage jobs, and are entitled to NHS tax credit exemption certificates

As you pointed out yourself, nicotine is classed as harmless. Just like earlier on, your stating that quitting smoking and quitting nicotine are the same thing. They are not the same thing. I have quit smoking, I no longer inhale smoke, and all it's nasty contents, I do however still inhale nicotine, it's that simple.