Fined for using an e-cig

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That little chain link thingwee is useful for hiding the full address of the link being posted.

Mintiesmum replied at post #18:

"was using it in bus shelter and some woman told pc community plod who came over.i told him it was e-ciggie and showed him it but there were fag butts on floor and he said i had been seen.had to give my name and address and got this thing through in the post."

[hifistud]

Hmmmm... I'd appeal it, but I'm not sure how much chance of success there is, particularly if it was a looky-likey. Why the hell some folks can't just mind their own business is beyond me - fergawd's sake, somebody whingeing to plod about somebody doing something they don't like is borderline childish...

[spikeychops]

Agreed Hifi, very childish.

And plod said because there were 'fag butts on the floor'...oh well, that's conclusive then!!! 'She was seen'..ahem, a looky likey ecig, will look exactly like a tobacco cigarette to the untrained eye, that's pretty much the point of the design.

Even after she showed him *proof* that she was at the *very least* in possession of an electronic cigarette, that looked very much like a tobacco analogue especially to people ignorant of ecigs..the berk still had the cheek to write it up as a civil infraction.

The burden of proof beyond *reasonable doubt* (key phrase) has to be at the feet of those who want her money...not the other way around, ever.

She showed the..ahem..'officer' that what she was smoking was an electronic facsimile, if he is too thick to understand the difference, that's his problem.

My advice (unprofessional advice) to anyone in a similar boat, is to either ignore the demand for money (it's illegal to demand money as a fine without first going to court...DVLA is currently being prosecuted for doing the same thing) or demand your day in court. In which case, if there has been a crime committed, the prosecution (who would probably never take it as far as court anyway) has to prove she was actually smoking.

I seriously doubt the com-plod bagged the 'fag butts on the floor' for DNA testing/evidence to match any of them to the accused, i doubt too that the woman stoolie made a written statement, and it's also doubtful that there is video or photographic evidence...and the 'accused' was in possession of and produced an electronic cigarette to the com-plod, which she explained to him and still maintains is what was mistaken for a tobacco cigarette.

There is *no* case against this woman, none that stand up to the level of evidential scrutiny required by law anyway.

If she pays the fine, she'll be playing directly into their hands...paying up is akin (in a legal sense) to admitting your guilt.

Don't forget the economic climate we find ourselves in folks...the police and courts have all been hit financially and the money has to come from other sources, in other words from all of us on trumped up charges like this one appears to be, and rely on public ignorance of the system / fear of prosecution to get them to cough up.

I'm dying to get something similar to happen to me, but all i get is weird looks (nothing unusual there then!), i'd love to go to court for 'smoking' my ecig....all the expenses, costs and compensation that would be coming my way would be handy right about now!

[rog]

I'm a bit ignorant of the law re analogues but is it now illegal in the UK to smoke outdoors in public apart from in designated smoking areas in pubs/cafes and restaurants?

Scary actually because I recall a week or so before I quit (and I quit last week) walking down my road to the local shops smoking one, could I have been fined for doing this?

Jul 27, 2011 11:14:58 GMT spikeychops said:

I'm dying to get something similar to happen to me, but all i get is weird looks (nothing unusual there then!), i'd love to go to court for 'smoking' my ecig....all the expenses, costs and compensation that would be coming my way would be handy right about now!

Hmmm, maybe there should organised massed vapes to test the law, and tempt them to take action, bit like the mass trespasses in the old days that led to the law on land use being changed and clarified!

[spikeychops]

No, don't worry rog, walking down the street smoking isn't illegal (yet!), so you're ok.

Some twit of a councillor in Bucks was trying to make it illegal in his high street..he was the only one for it.

In the case of this woman at the bus stop, technically speaking, even if she was smoking a fag in the shelter, it's not a 'criminal offence' at all, it's more of a civil thing, and only the bus company could have taken action. Just because a company or corporation puts a sign up telling you not to smoke, it doesn't give them any lawful right to issue you a fine.

Everyone in the UK has the right to due process under law. In other words, you have the right to hear the charges against you, see the evidence against you (if any exists), and have the opportunity to refute them via a defence in court.

Simply sending an *official looking and lawyer-esque worded* letter demanding money as a fine, doesn't cut the mustard in this country, and is in fact (believe it or not) illegal. Most will simply be frightened of the system enough to immediately pay any 'fine' demanded, and this is what is counted on to raise money.

Direct action like you suggest is certainly one way to highlight ecigs and make the majority of people aware of them, but it might have a negative effect of forcing legislation that we might not want to see brought about. As the law stands now, you can vape literally anywhere you want to.

Having said that, in a shop or supermarket or similar place, the owner or operator has the right to ask you to leave if you don't stop 'smoking' your ecig, but has no authority or powers to compel you to stop vaping, fine or demand money from you, or confiscate your gear.

The time for mass direct action would probably be when the busy body's decide to talk about banning or taxing the hell out of ecigs.

[rog]

Thanks for the reply spikeychops, glad it's a one off rather than a general rule - crazy stuff though!

[spikeychops]

No worries rog.

I'm no expert with this legal malarky, so anything i say re legal stuff, should be checked out with someone who deals with it.

Ecigs being mistaken for real fags is understandable especially from a distance, but showing that it's an ecig, even demonstrating it for someone concerned should be more than enough to convince them it's an electronic device.

If they insist on trying to issue a fine or even go as far as confiscating your gear, they are either too stupid to reason with, or their only concern is issuing as many fines as possible.

Either way, go over their heads if you have to, but do NOT sign anything they put in front of you...there is NO legal requirement or compulsion for anyone to sign anything, none whatsoever, if you do sign, you ARE admitting/confirming your guilt and demonstrating acceptance (in a legal sense) of the fine, charge, or whatever. You do not have to give your name and / or address either.

It is crazy stuff rob, and i reckon it's going to get crazier too.

[Clutter]

My first thought was "Why didn't Mintiesmum give a false name and address?" like we used to when I was a kid

I didn't realise you could refuse. Presumably community plod would have to arrest you if you refused and plod wanted to pursue the matter.

[clockworks]

Do these plastics have the power of arrest? I didn't think that they did.
I'd just tell them to do one, and not give them any info. If they want to call a real copper, fair enough. I'm sure they would be prepared to listen to reason, and accept the evidence of their own eyes, as long as I was polite.

[fishermansam]

Jul 28, 2011 14:59:49 GMT spikeychops said:

No worries rog.

I'm no expert with this legal malarky, so anything i say re legal stuff, should be checked out with someone who deals with it.

Ecigs being mistaken for real fags is understandable especially from a distance, but showing that it's an ecig, even demonstrating it for someone concerned should be more than enough to convince them it's an electronic device.

If they insist on trying to issue a fine or even go as far as confiscating your gear, they are either too stupid to reason with, or their only concern is issuing as many fines as possible.

Either way, go over their heads if you have to, but do NOT sign anything they put in front of you...there is NO legal requirement or compulsion for anyone to sign anything, none whatsoever, if you do sign, you ARE admitting/confirming your guilt and demonstrating acceptance (in a legal sense) of the fine, charge, or whatever. You do not have to give your name and / or address either.

It is crazy stuff rob, and i reckon it's going to get crazier too.

Spot on spikeychops. Acts are not Law's. If you sign something, you are entering a contract. All Acts rely on contract. The Polis are obliged to confirm this if you ask.

Never give your name or any information, ask them what LAW you have broken and then ask them 'under what authority?' they are acting. The clue is in the word 'Act' as in it's all a game.

Vape freely!

[MIDIManNI]

Just my 2p worth...

In N. Ireland recently a driver for a large company was stopped by Police and Cautioned for Smoking whilst driving the Company HGV and was told that a case would be brought against him.

The owner of the Company who I know very well rang the Police and told them that it was an E-Cigarette and that it was quite legal to smoke these - the Police had to agree and the case was dropped!

The problem was that the person driving the lorry WAS smoking a real fag and people like these are going to get the rest of US a bad name!!!

The owner of the Company makes matters worse in that he is going to provide all his HGV drivers with cheap E-Cigs as a "get out clause" just in case they get stopped whilst smoking and driving!

We will end up paying the cost for this as the "Powers that be" may make include vaping as an offence!

Later...