Land of hope and glory

[Deleted]

Mar 9, 2016 23:19:55 GMT vapedub said:

All you folks that are in lala land ....

Oh what a lovely post & now edited, so nice that you felt the need to quote yourself.  it seems there is only one person in lalaland & you really should seek help. Goodbye!

BIGMOUTH STRIKES AGAIN

[striker42]

Ug/Zuza/Vaperider/Vapedub or whatever name you choose to register with tomorrow, in case it escaped your attention when you were a member here, Chrissie, Perpetua, jess and Karma are all a wee bit smarter than your average bear so it won't take them long to catch on and change your username to "moved on" again. Time to pack it in auld son.

[nanotm]

Mar 9, 2016 22:40:13 GMT lobeydosser said:

I have been trying to trace our Family Tree for well over 20 years now and it would appear that our families originate from the West Coast of Scotland, Northern Ireland and Donegal. Well as far back as the mid 1700's anyways.
However if I am to believe the speculators, we are actually descendants of the Danish Vikings.
Must go out and buy one of these Horned Helmets with the Ginger Haired Fringe.

I suppose if we are going to get folks opinions on the importance of our nationalities, we should also seek some opinions on "owning(???) land".
What right has some "person" who is born into a family who are the hereditary chiefs of some Clan, to claim that they own a certain tract of land and that they have the right to sell that land?
The one that tried to sell the Cuillins on Skye was such a "Clan Chief". By the way, this clown died in 2007 leaving 15 million in his estate.

But there are plenty of others who claim the right to "own land" simply because the family have lived there for a number of years yet if you traced the history of that land back far enough you would find that they have no rights whatever to that land and if they actually paid money for it at some point in the distant past, then whoever "sold" it to them had no right to do so.

We may be the custodians of land for a limited period of time and we have a duty to look after that land to the best of our ability, but we have no right to "own" that land nor do we have the right to sell it for profit.

As to my own nationality. Well I have lived in a few countries and yes, had I been conscripted to fight in any one of these, I would have joined up and done my bit. Indeed in one of these countries the UK did come fairly close to rattling some sabres.
These days I "belong" to wherever I feel most comfortable living in.

I can trace my family tree back to norman conquests, not fully but its not that difficult, there was a norman barron with my surname that was granted title and lands in the north of England, his second son was granted similar in Ireland, since that time throusnads of people have held the same surname, my dad was born in Dublin and as such I have a strong affinity for the emerald isle, having said that I was born in England and I choose to serve in the armed forces, whilst I wouldn't wish to sqauander my life I readily accepted the idea that it might be necessary to loose it in sacrifice for my fellow man, to protect the culture and freedoms it entailed.

I happily accepted one of many responsibilities (to protect the weak untrained masses from whatever threatened them) and understood that if my life could save others then it wasn't a waste of a life no matter what happened, and yes rousing speeches are all great and wonderful for the 10 minutes your stood in formation but the second you move off those rousing words start to wear off.....

as to "belong" I live in a different county that of my birth, but one where I spent more time as a youngster I cant say I "belong" here but I certainly feel more at home than anywhere else I've lived, but then again I've always been home as long as my wife was with me, and to a lesser extent my kids, although the latter will mostly soon flee to their own lives so that's probably for the best

perhaps this is strange but in all my travles and discussions the only people who troubled over where they were from were the yougnsters, then again people in my line of work tended to be more adventurous of spirit and didn't care where they were so long as it was comfortable delivered 3 meals a day and let you sleep peacefully (and given some of the places we went over the years you were lucky to get just one of those things)  but now with better technology at least you don't have to wait 3 months for a bluey to travel home and another 3 weeks for the reply you can sit in front of a screen and video chat to your loved ones in real time .....

but I think the sense of "belonging" isn't just about country identification but also local cultures as well, frankly some of the mannerisms speech patterns and ideas from nearby counties were as foreign as those of other nationalities, but even so it didn't take long to get used to each other and forge deep bonds, we all took the same oaths and worked for the same paymasters and we identified as much through our individualities as through our similarities that all of it needed protecting and keeping going, with the basic wish that when our time was done to find a home and stay there..... some went to new places and did new things others went to where they were from and did old things and some went on a different path but everyone did their bit to try and save the rest of the country regardless of which place they came from or which bit they wished to call "home".

I find it less strange that we wish to preserve that which we know and more strange that others continually try to coerce change be that through force of arms or dodgy laws

[Perpetua]

Mar 10, 2016 0:48:30 GMT striker42 said:

Ug/Zuza/Vaperider/Vapedub or whatever name you choose to register with tomorrow, in case it escaped your attention when you were a member here, Chrissie , Perpetua , jess and Karma are all a wee bit smarter than your average bear so it won't take them long to catch on and change your username to "moved on" again. Time to pack it in auld son.

Clearly this is one very nasty, disturbed individual we are dealing with here striker42 intent on causing unpleasantness on our forum . . . . since the vaperider debacle, we have again thwarted a number of attempts at his re-joining.

The odds are despite our best attempts to be vigilant that an ID or IP might slip through the net - if any Members should see a post(s) that are inappropriate or suspicious could they please hit the Report button and we will deal with them.

How sad that this person instead of using their time for something good or worthwhile in this world uses it instead for such ugly, despicable purposes.

[yahoo2u2]

This thread as I suspected it would makes you consider the points of "its our land", as opposed to the culture that you accept defines a nationality.

[nanotm]

Mar 10, 2016 7:20:15 GMT yahoo2u2 said:

This thread as I suspected it would makes you consider the points of "its our land", as opposed to the culture that you accept defines a nationality.

ahh but it is "our land" or "our culture" or "our nationality" all the same similar or inextricably linked ?

for my own part I believe that nationality and culture are created by those that commune upon the land, considering that the whole of Britain was divided into feudal territories fiercely defending the land (because without land there was no crops and no livestock to feed the people) that that feudal society whilst internally struggling against itself regularly came together to drive off greater enemies (invaders from across the water) that once a united front was created (in the wake of the romans) those feudal groups whilst still suffering disagreements and skirmishes largely followed the same lines of thought (better off together than alone united under one leader) the mini fiefdoms broke down into lordships but still operated in regional isolation whilst society at large followed the same ideas disseminated via the church from the central seat of power (London) they had differences that allowed local identity and thus retained the sense of "our land" however with that came the united idealogical ways from which the "our culture" was formed and together they followed the centrist positions that also created the "our nationality".

Scotland for instance was isolated from the whole for the longest time and as such still has fierce regional identity yet the Scottish are some of the most loyal and fierce fighters ever to grace the lands, the welsh having "joined" a few hundred years earlier are far less antagonistic towards any perceived slight against their regional identity but no less loyal to the whole, and the "English" suffer the least in terms of anger to national slurs, of course anyone can be wound up through direct intentional slurs against their region or sub region, if you said something about porridge wogs, northern monkeys, southern shandy drinking poofs or webby coned headed inbreads theres not many from those areas that wouldn't take offence and pummel you severly, but in knowing this are there not also many lines of cominality between all such regions or sub regions ?

**no that wasn't an attempt to insult anyone from any of those places so please don't be upset, yes I know there highly charged insults but that was largely the point of using them for the example.**


we assume a cultural identity based on the community in which we are raised, the socialists have for a long time tried to get rid of this and finally through "multiculturalism" they are diluting it to the point that community spirit dissolves, we are starting to loose our sense of identity and that makes us more like feral animals, which is in turn leading to a huge rise of far more dangerous widespread thinking (often lead by the worst kind of zenophobic ultra nationalist socilaists ) nearly a hundred years of tearing down our national system of communal strength is leading us closer to loosing everything, without the unified leadership of a single entity(the ruling monarch) reigned in by a second order control mechanism (parliament + lords) we are nothing but temporary dwellers, and those crying loudest for the expulsion of that order are lib/lab/EU/mass immigration, if we loose our sense of identity at large then we loose coherence or common goals and then we cease to be "us" just more "lost" in the waves of time, any other nation that retains will then be free to walk over and imprint their ideals and culture (sure there would be a few staunch holdouts but not a coherent mass large enough to prevent it) and change that identity (which is just what all conquering armies tried to do in various ways but none so successful as to achieve it through peaceable means over prolonged periods)

[lobeydosser]

<<< can trace my family tree back to norman conquests, not fully but its not that difficult, there was a norman barron with my surname that was granted title and lands in the north of England, his second son was granted similar in Ireland, >>>

Hi nanotm, I cannot help but wonder what the thoughts were of the poor individuals whose families had farmed that land in the North of England for probably hundreds, if not thousands of years before being told by some foreign twit that he now "owned" (???) their land.
Who, I wonder, had the authority to take that land from whoever, and "grant it" away to whoever.
The whole "ownership" of land in this country is an abomination of moral in-justice.

Although I have the Title Deeds of my house and land, I doubt if I would have to go back too many years before I found that some Lord or Duke had stolen the land and claimed it for his own just so that he could sell it to make some dishonest earnings for himself.

[nanotm]

Mar 10, 2016 21:58:23 GMT lobeydosser said:

since commoners couldn't own anything before the magna carta the change of the ruling lord would of made zero difference to the majority of people living in the area (unless that new incumbent ruler was nastier than the last one), the only person who could grant title over any portion of land was the sovereign that owned it, and most of them did so only so they may tax the title holder ....

I've often thought ownership rights were abysmal, in reality title deeds don't entitle you to very much at all, you could own a thousand acres of farm land but everything a couple of feet below the surface belongs to the state ..... in effect your deed gives you the right to claim the outer surface as your own and to work it as you see fit but only the surface, if you want to go down more than a few feet then you need special permissions and new permits and title deeds issued to you by the state .....and even then you might not be allowed to claim ownership of anything found or extracted

[lobeydosser]

I know what Title Deeds allow you to own and what they do not.

The point I am trying to make is that No One , not State, Nor Royalty, Not Magna bloody Carta, nor anyone else has any right to own any land that they do not work for their own or others benefit.

The laws regarding land ownership in this country are wrong. They have been wrong for a very long time and that doesn't make it right.
There is a time coming soon when, at least in Scotland, landowners will have to prove their right to ownership of the lands they claim to own.
Just watch the ol' knicker elastic start to fluctuate at high speed then!!!!

[nanotm]

Mar 10, 2016 22:48:58 GMT lobeydosser said:

I know what Title Deeds allow you to own and what they do not.

The point I am trying to make is that No One , not State, Nor Royalty, Not Magna bloody Carta, nor anyone else has any right to own any land that they do not work for their own or others benefit.

The laws regarding land ownership in this country are wrong. They have been wrong for a very long time and that doesn't make it right.
There is a time coming soon when, at least in Scotland, landowners will have to prove their right to ownership of the lands they claim to own.
Just watch the ol' knicker elastic start to fluctuate at high speed then!!!!

is that the law they presented late last year whereby if you fail the ownership test your land reverts to the state which is then free to flog it off, with the current owner (regardless of how much they spent on it) getting zero compensation for the loss ?

which would make it that the state owns everything unless you can prove a continuing need for it or can prove a need for as yet un held lands and have the cash to pay the state for it ....
sounds rather like the system implemented by another state about 90 years ago somewhere not so far away under the guidance of a certain psychotic megalomaniac, I do hope history isn't trying to repeat itself

[lobeydosser]

Nope. Can't be the same thing at all.
Our lot don't have little square tashes!!!

[nanotm]

Mar 10, 2016 23:01:57 GMT lobeydosser said:

Nope. Can't be the same thing at all.
Our lot don't have little square tashes!!!

that's very true, I'd forgotten that link between the various folks that implemented such ideas in the past, maybe the current implementers have studied history seen where things went wrong and are trying a new version in the hopes of avoiding the past mistakes

hmm food for thought

still loosing ones land will be a scary prospect for many especially if they start adding in caveats on top the working of it ones, time will tell if its a long term open-ended policy or a closed loop short term one I guess, I would hate to think they were just making some callous land grabs for mates rates in the pursuit of quick money to fund some other ideas, I do hope its just me being cynical of the situation rather than some nefarious plot by self centred people at the top that expect to get away with robbing normal folk of their homes and livelyhoods,


whilst I never like to think i'm wrong being right wouldn't just be terrible it would be tragic and further destabilise the national identities and community spirt and sense belonging of far too many all at once

[lobeydosser]

<<<still loosing ones land will be a scary prospect for many especially if they start adding in caveats on top the working of it ones, time will tell if its a long term open-ended policy or a closed loop short term one I guess, I would hate to think they were just making some callous land grabs for mates rates in the pursuit of quick money to fund some other ideas, I do hope its just me being cynical of the situation rather than some nefarious plot by self centred people at the top that expect to get away with robbing normal folk of their homes and livelyhoods, >>>

In almost every century of the last 1000 years, such a scheme has been thought up by either the landed gentry or the government here in the UK and they have got away with it.
The last big land-grab came during WW2 and many areas are still waiting to be "repatriated".

The sad part about all these estates that are "owned" often by Absentee Landlords, is that they are supported by hard working Tenants who have little in the way of Rights to their housing or jobs.

Personally I would like to see these Landlords dragged out of their Gin Swilling London Clubs and Lynched on the nearest lamppost.
A few overweight "decorations" along Pall Mall would go a long way to promote a bit of urgency to our long overdue land reform.