Vendor vs Vendor post TPD problems

[MarkS]

Just been reading on Facebook that some fully TPD compliant UK vendors are snitching on other UK vendors to Trading Standards who are less TPD compliant.
For example still selling tanks bigger than 2ml and juice in bottles larger than 10ml.
The details of the post I read were hazy, but it's from a reliable source.

If this really is happening what are your thoughts? I understand the lengths and cost that some vendors have gone to becoming TPD compliant and that they feel the need to protect their businesses and employees, but it doesn't sit comfortably with me to know vendors are turning on each other in this way.

Sad and sorry state of affairs. Bet the pencil pushers in Brussels are loving the industry turning on it's self.

[snow]

Could see that coming a mile off - I've seen loads of facebook groups where they are merrily selling non compliant juice and tanks etc and posting things like we're all one big vaping family so we'll be fine Put yourself in the other vendors position, they have jumped through hoops, paid for licenses, done the testing, got rid of non compliant stock at cost prices and along comes someone with no over heads, probably no staff or premises and they are vastly undercutting you and pushing illegal goods - why on earth should they just turn a blind eye? Not to mention they are actually doing the antis a massive favour by openly flouting TPD the way some of these groups have been doing.

[ghostrider1971]

I think it's a very interesting moral question.....and being absolutely honest, I'm not sure what my answer is.

Seeing in my local B&M today 16.99 for 3 x 10ml of Dinner Lady really makes me want to spit bile to be honest - a wonderful example of the great ejuice rip off.

Equally, I think companies like Rejuiced have played the game with the TPD very well and have kept their prices and service very competitive.

Would I be absolutely adverse to acquiring a big bottle of a favoured juice for a reasonable rate......?

I think we have lost a huge amount of great retailers to the TPD......perhaps a shame some of the rip-off chains have survived....we know how they managed it....exorbitant prices for questionable quality......

[MarkS]

I honestly can see both sides of the argument snow & ghostrider1971 . although would I buy a non-compliant under the counter tank from a UK vendor? I'd be lying if I said I wouldn't. We're still seeing online vendors selling off non-compliant stock. Only yesterday I bought a non-compliant Isub tank posted on here. I was going to share it on my twitter feed, but relented as I felt it could get the vendor into trouble. I do have some antz spy on my timeline from time to time, but it wasn't them that I was actually worried about. I think it's sad that some feel the need to do Trading Standards jobs for them. 

Another interesting point is that France & Germany haven't banned tanks over 2ml and we're still able to buy them from both of those countries here in the UK.
As was said all along. The TPD really is a dogs breakfast.

[Postmodern Smoking]

Jun 1, 2017 17:14:59 GMT MarkS said:

...
Another interesting point is that France & Germany haven't banned tanks over 2ml and we're still able to buy them from both of those countries here in the UK.
As was said all along. The TPD really is a dogs breakfast.

I could be wrong, but... I'm not sure whether we/they can (legally), unless they've registered the products with the UK's MHRA under the cross-border selling clauses of the TPD.

[MarkS]

Jun 1, 2017 17:24:44 GMT Postmodern Smoking said:

Jun 1, 2017 17:14:59 GMT MarkS said:

...
Another interesting point is that France & Germany haven't banned tanks over 2ml and we're still able to buy them from both of those countries here in the UK.
As was said all along. The TPD really is a dogs breakfast.

I could be wrong, but... I'm not sure whether we/they can (legally), unless they've registered the products with the UK's MHRA under the cross-border selling clauses of the TPD.

It's apparently the MHRA and DOH who have clarified cross-border sales with France & Germany are not an issue.  


E2A: Just trying to get some clarification on this. I think the registration may only apply to Manufacturers as the vendors will already be registered in their relevant member states. Could be wrong, but I'm waiting on an answer.

[Postmodern Smoking]

Jun 1, 2017 17:39:04 GMT MarkS said:

Jun 1, 2017 17:24:44 GMT Postmodern Smoking said:

I could be wrong, but... I'm not sure whether we/they can (legally), unless they've registered the products with the UK's MHRA under the cross-border selling clauses of the TPD.

It's apparently the MHRA and DOH who have clarified cross-border sales with France & Germany are not an issue.  

E2A: Just trying to get some clarification on this. I think the registration may only apply to Manufacturers as the vendors will already be registered in their relevant member states. Could be wrong, but I'm waiting on an answer.

According to this (from the MHRA), they do need to register to sell to consumers here!

Cross Border Sales

You need to register your business if you supply e-cigarette products via cross-border distance sales, for example online sales. This applies to:

- businesses established in the UK selling e-cigarettes and / or refill containers to consumers in another EEA state (European Economic Area – the 28 EU Member States plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway)
- businesses established in the EEA or third country selling to UK consumers. Business to business sales, that is sales not direct to consumers, do not need to be registered.

Registration is a legal requirement under the TPD. Without confirmation of registration businesses must not supply a relevant product to a consumer via a cross-border distance sale. The UK notification requirement applies to products supplied to UK consumers via a cross-border sale.

(Source: www.gov.uk/guidance/e-cigarettes-regulations-for-consumer-products)

[djs]

t.b.h. I don't see it as vendors turning against each other in a sort of 'turning in on itself'....

It's a small hump in the road, and now were are in TPD-land, I think it's fair enough for compliant vendors to put some spokes in the wheels of those flouting the rules.

So I agree with snow on this.

I would (of course) have no qualms with buying some under-the-counter 30ml or large tanks from a respectable vaping store. It's not gonna happen though as I'm done with shopping for a very long time.

[MarkS]

Jun 1, 2017 17:56:57 GMT Postmodern Smoking said:

Jun 1, 2017 17:39:04 GMT MarkS said:

According to this (from the MHRA), they do need to register to sell to consumers here!

Cross Border Sales

You need to register your business if you supply e-cigarette products via cross-border distance sales, for example online sales. This applies to:

- businesses established in the UK selling e-cigarettes and / or refill containers to consumers in another EEA state (European Economic Area – the 28 EU Member States plus Iceland, Liechtenstein and Norway)
- businesses established in the EEA or third country selling to UK consumers. Business to business sales, that is sales not direct to consumers, do not need to be registered.

Registration is a legal requirement under the TPD. Without confirmation of registration businesses must not supply a relevant product to a consumer via a cross-border distance sale. The UK notification requirement applies to products supplied to UK consumers via a cross-border sale.

(Source: www.gov.uk/guidance/e-cigarettes-regulations-for-consumer-products)

Thank you. Just going to borrow that for a moment. i'll be back

[ceedee]

I believe that retailers wishing to sell direct to consumers in other EU states (where permitted) need to have been accepted onto each country's cross-border sales registers but that products themselves don't need to be re-notified in each and every country.

So theoretically it would currently be legal for UK consumers to buy >2ml tanks from French or German retailers even though it would be an offence for a UK retailer to sell the same item.

I've also heard (though I'm waiting for confirmation) that under the German implementation of the TPD, mods without atomisers / tanks also require their own EU-CIG notification which makes absolutely no sense to me...

[MarkS]

Jun 1, 2017 18:05:44 GMT djs said:

t.b.h. I don't see it as vendors turning against each other in a sort of 'turning in on itself'....

It's a small hump in the road, and now were are in TPD-land, I think it's fair enough for compliant vendors to put some spokes in the wheels of those flouting the rules.

So I agree with snow on this.

I would (of course) have no qualms with buying some under-the-counter 30ml or large tanks from a respectable vaping store. It's not gonna happen though as I'm done with shopping for a very long time.

But if you want a tank that's larger than 2ml and lets be fair we're mostly talking about vapers who know the ropes. Then consumers will just take their business to China.
Vapers new to vaping will buy the 2ml tanks and TPD compliant products as they will know no better.

I for example won't be buying any more 2ml tanks as I already own 3 (one an in built device) and they're just not practical for how I vape. 

[MarkS]

Jun 1, 2017 18:13:20 GMT ceedee said:

I believe that retailers wishing to sell direct to consumers in other EU states (where permitted) need to have been accepted onto each country's cross-border sales registers but that products themselves don't need to be re-notified in each and every country.

So theoretically it would currently be legal for UK consumers to buy >2ml tanks from French or German retailers even though it would be an offence for a UK retailer to sell the same item.

I've also heard (though I'm waiting for confirmation) that under the German implementation of the TPD, mods without atomisers / tanks also require their own EU-CIG notification which makes absolutely no sense to me...

That makes sense...the part about retailers registering but not needing to re notify products already notified in their member states.


The part about mods without atomisers makes no sense at all. 

Why does all of this remind me of the opening credits of Soap? "Confused?....you will be after this weeks episode of Soap"

[VE Jason]

One point that should also be considered is that those who are ignoring the TPD mustn't carry products liability insurance.

Because, if they did, their insurers would have a ready made reason to deny the claims.

I used to bear a grudge against those that didn't carry the correct insurance (when it was costing us £50K per year) and I'm pretty sure that if you added the cost of us becoming TPD compliant (approx £500K) - the grudge would be a lot bigger

Whether I'd report others or not - I'm not sure (goes against my grain really) but I can certainly sympathise with those that do.

[MarkS]

Jun 1, 2017 18:48:49 GMT VE Jason said:

One point that should also be considered is that those who are ignoring the TPD mustn't carry products liability insurance.

Because, if they did, their insurers would have a ready made reason to deny the claims.

I used to bear a grudge against those that didn't carry the correct insurance (when it was costing us £50K per year) and I'm pretty sure that if you added the cost of us becoming TPD compliant (approx £500K) - the grudge would be a lot bigger

Whether I'd report others or not - I'm not sure (goes against my grain really) but I can certainly sympathise with those that do.

That comment regarding the liability insurance puts things into a completely different perspective.

My view on this was based exactly on going against my grain too. It's just not in my nature to tell tales on others.

But yes I genuinely do sympathise with those who have literally broken the bank to become compliant.