Tobacco product regulation

[azzie]

Im not sure if this is suited for the general forum or media (mods please move this as you see fit).

Anyways, Ive been doing alot more digging and reading about tobacco regulation and what with the next MHRA report sometime (spring?) next year:- well to cut to the chase it would appear that an achilles-heel is the classification of tobacco products.

"tobacco product" means a product made wholly or partly of tobacco for the purpose of being smoked, sniffed, sucked or chewed, but does not include a product which is made partly of tobacco and is intended to help a consumer of tobacco products to stop or reduce his use of such products.

The definition seems a bit flakey and allows big pharma to market their NRT products as 'non-tobacco products', whilst on the flip-side it is a catchall for ejuice.

Im guessing that any vendor who uses in-house steeps/extractions/WTA etc also falls under HM Customs:

2.10 Must I pay duty on tobacco products which I have made myself from raw tobacco leaf I have purchased?
Yes. You must pay the duty on any tobacco products that you make from unprocessed tobacco which you have purchased. This applies whether the tobacco products are intended for sale or solely for your own consumption. Anyone intending to manufacture tobacco products must comply with the conditions set out in this Notice. You should contact us using the contact information in paragraph 1.5 of the Notice before you begin manufacturing.


sources:
www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1991/1530/made
customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPortalWebApp/channelsPortalWebApp.portal?_nfpb=true&_pageLabel=pageVAT_ShowContent&propertyType=document&columns=1&id=HMCE_CL_000268#P129_16687


Thoughts?

[giles]

At the moment I guess we claim that vaping comes in the red part.

The word "intended" is interesting. If I was a vendor I'd include on my web-site, and maybe distribute with my products, advice about how to reduce your nic level to zero. After all, it doesn't matter if it works (the pharma companies would be stuffed if that did matter) and, as far as I can see, it doesn't matter if anybody takes your advice. The point is you could claim in court that you intended "to help a consumer stop or reduce.."

[azzie]

I think you`re right giles. Those regulations are 10 years old, I cannot see that they will stay that way.

Our American cousins has their ejuice classified as a tobacco product rather than medicinal.

If/when that happens we`ll get heavy tax and regulations.

The other part of it is if you process tobacco products you are liable to pay tobacco duties..and as such there are extra regulations because of it.

Its a shame as I enjoy my eltorro but surely this is a processed tobacco product?

[sarahthesinger]

Surely only some e-liquids will be subject to scrutiny under any regulation change - I pretty much exclusively vape fruit and sweet flavours so no tobacco content. How much tobacco is even in the tobac flavours? Aren't most liquids just a flavouring?

Either way, big can of worms! Personally, I'm vaping to help stop smoking (1 week today ) so fall under the red bit. While I intend to slowly cut down on the nic consumption, I'm enjoying vaping so may continue with no-nic juices. Wonder what the regulators would make of THAT!

[giles]

I think it will be all about the nicotine.

As far as I can tell, all nicotine comes from tobacco, so the flavour doesn't matter unless you are zero nic. And I doubt if anyone would go after you for selling a zero-nic tobacco-flavoured product, what ever the legislation was.

I think we have to accept that some regulation is not only inevitable, but also desirable. I think as it stands you could probably sell legally to children, which can't be right. My impression is that while most suppliers have good labelling practice, there is no good applicable law, and so no mechanism for forcing bad suppliers to behave.

I mix my own juices, so my personal concern is whether I will be able to buy unflavoured nicotine. But I plan to own about 5 years supply by next March.

[Deleted]

Reading through the two threads it appears to me they refer to tobacco products that are designed to be smoked which we are not doing so untill the regulations include extracting flavour from tobacco I feel the regulations don't apply. Dave

[Roger]

All UK vendors are subject to Trading Standards and should comply with CHIP etc, so bad suppliers as you put it, can be jumped upon. There are laws.

[giles]

Dave, if I'm right in thinking that all nicotine comes from tobacco, then all juices are tobacco products, regardless of flavour, unless they are zero-nic.

I'm thinking that that the legislation will apply to all juices containing nicotine, and will not apply to equipment, zero-nic juices, or DIY mix flavourings.

Carts containing juices should be regulated, but I suspect may not be, because the pharma companies sell those and will pressure the government to keep them duty-free.

[skipraider]

I'm getting a chest freezer & filling it up with 75% nic asap

[giles]

Roger, I'm no expert in this stuff, but it seems to me that CHIP is designed for hazardous chemicals that are not (should not be) ingested, and that Trading Standards are specific things (e.g. if you are selling sweets, these are the seven ingredients you have to list) and, as far as I know, there are no specific rules for e-cigarettes. I think there should be - for example VG/PG mix is not always quoted, presence or absence of alcohol is important to some vapers.

[Roger]

Nov 17, 2012 16:50:24 GMT giles said:

Roger, I'm no expert in this stuff, but it seems to me that CHIP is designed for hazardous chemicals that are not (should not be) ingested, and that Trading Standards are specific things (e.g. if you are selling sweets, these are the seven ingredients you have to list) and, as far as I know, there are no specific rules for e-cigarettes. I think there should be - for example VG/PG mix is not always quoted, presence or absence of alcohol is important to some vapers.

What do you think E-Liquid is?? There are rules for e-liquid labelling, a few vendors have fallen foul of TS and had to change their labelling, so some rules do exist.

None of us know what is going to happen next year, we just have to hope it won't be too bad.

[giles]

Nov 17, 2012 16:54:22 GMT Roger said:

What do you think E-Liquid is??

I think E-liquid is something which is not normally drunk, and that the CHIP system refers only to what happens if you drink it, not if you boil it and inhale the vapour.

Nov 17, 2012 16:54:22 GMT Roger said:

There are rules for e-liquid labelling, a few vendors have fallen foul of TS and had to change their labelling, so some rules do exist.

I'm curious to know what those rules are. A cursory glance at the bottles on my shelf show no agreement over whether you have to quote nic level, what CHIP symbols are necessary or whether you need the raised triangle thing, and include poison warnings you'd need a microscope to read. And these bottles are all from reputable suppliers.

[Roger]

E-liquid should not be drunk - Correct it is a poison, that is why it requires CHIP, nothing to do with vaping it, it's to (supposedly) stop people drinking it.

Not all suppliers are as scrupulous as they should be.

ETA

Go and have a read of this thread, you do not need to be registered, it explains some things better than I can. It's started by John at FlavourartUK, a respected supplier

ukvapers.org/Thread-Trading-Standards-closing-down-eliquid-suppliers

[azzie]

That thread on UKV has some interesting stuff in it, thanks Roger. The post about whats happening in Greece is of particular interest

[giles]

Interesting thread Roger, thanks. My point was (like Lazydog's in the thread) that CHIP is fine as far as it goes, but it doesn't go very far.

The suppliers may not be as scrupulous as they should be, but I don't think they are unscrupulous (hope not, they are on the vendors list here). Like John I wish they were more careful.

I don't think we can reasonably expect to continue without some explicit standards which address more than just how you label poisons.