Diabolical Article from New York Times Astroturf Accusation

[gibla53]

t.co/Ls3RvglS1B

Needless to say ANTZ  are loving this

[Jen]

Why is it so hard for people to understand we vape because it's great, not because some company tells us to? Looks like the marketing industry believes its own hype to me. Since when does the democratic process *in principle* require commercial and industrial lobbyists and not just average citizens?

I for one sent many emails to MPs and so on, and I've never been anywhere near that store with the grinning devil.

[barrynorton]

I'm sorry, but I don't find this diabolical. I know there's a tendency here to label everything that takes other than a wholly congratulatory stance on vaping as evil 'antz' propaganda, but objectively this seems perfectly fair. The effort was transparently a mix of 'grass roots' and a growing industry fighting for survival by every means possible, including the lobbying for which we deride big tobacco. To point this out is not taboo.

[gibla53]

I find the timing of the article and its focus on one side of the lobbying debate questionable . Why was there not any similar focus on Pharma lobying from a multitude of vested interests . By all accounts Pharma funded lobbying dwarfs tobacco and most certainly e-cig lobbying by a massive amount .

Anyway .... an amusing tale here t.co/9X8lpgWmzt re ANTZ

[djs]

It's just SO silly.

Yet the outcome, driven in large part by the industry’s success in mobilizing a wave of support from consumers and using it to apply political pressure to lawmakers, amounted to a big victory for e-cigarette sellers, one in which they outgunned not just the tobacco companies but also pharmaceutical companies that make competing products for people trying to stop smoking.

Driven in a large part by the industry....etc.

I do believe I drove myself to write, complain, write, email, shout, see my MP.....

It's like saying people demand coffee shops like Costa and Nero, because Costa and Nero are twisting our arms.

[djs]

Nov 10, 2013 10:52:11 GMT Jen said:

Why is it so hard for people to understand we vape because it's great, not because some company tells us to? Looks like the marketing industry believes its own hype to me. Since when does the democratic process *in principle* require commercial and industrial lobbyists and not just average citizens?

I for one sent many emails to MPs and so on, and I've never been anywhere near that store with the grinning devil.

Amen, Sister.

[djs]

Gosh...something I agree with.

Without such appeals, said Fraser Cropper, Totally Wicked’s managing director, the proposed regulations would have become law and “our company would have to shut down.” But he said that the passions of vapers had not been manipulated. “To label this as a slick corporate lobbying effort gives us more credit than we deserve,” he said.

Too right Fraser.

[ionian]

I've read it and think it's a slightly lazy piece of investigative journalism, making associations without asking the consumers about their motivations - but I can see how it could appear that way from an outsiders point of view. It's important to remember that everyone has a vested interest in ensuring their point of view is heard, including big pharma and ecig vendors.

I worry that we, as vapers, are fighting the wrong fight. We can't win hearts and minds of those that hate smoking because the rallying cry for anti-tobacco is now saturated in our society. I personally am not fussed if I can't vape indoors, or in pubs, but I will fight for my right to do what I like in my own home with a product that is clearly less harmful than I can buy over the counter in my local supermarket with my groceries.

[barrynorton]

Nov 10, 2013 14:46:47 GMT ionian said:

I've read it and think it's a slightly lazy piece of investigative journalism.

Seriously? It's the New York Times and it covers a European story over two pages with several relevant interviews.

[ionian]

Nov 10, 2013 15:18:14 GMT barrynorton said:

Nov 10, 2013 14:46:47 GMT ionian said:

I've read it and think it's a slightly lazy piece of investigative journalism.

Seriously? It's the New York Times and it covers a European story over two pages with several relevant interviews.

Sorry, I should clarify - it's writing with an agenda in mind, that agenda being to link the support from consumers of vaping products with the vaping vendors, without examining whether the link is causal or contrived. I'm not slating the article, merely suggesting that some of the conclusions it draws are wide of the mark to add intrigue and conspiracy where none exists. This sort of writing sells papers, including the NYT, in tough times for journalism. 

[barrynorton]

Put that way, I definitely respect your point of view. The way I see it there's enough evidence though to ask the question. You have to bear in mind that this is a paper that actually bothers to report on the fake 'grass roots consumer activist' groups that Big Pharma sets up all the time. In the UK our stupid press mostly runs with the "NICE under fire for refusing to fund new cancer drug" stories without even thinking to question where these groups spring from.

Simply put: the forums that allowed commercial vendors to drive the petitions and MEP letters were (and are) fighting with a double-edged sword.

[ionian]

Nov 10, 2013 16:23:52 GMT barrynorton said:

Put that way, I definitely respect your point of view. The way I see it there's enough evidence though to ask the question. You have to bear in mind that this is a paper that actually bothers to report on the fake 'grass roots consumer activist' groups that Big Pharma sets up all the time. In the UK our stupid press mostly runs with the "NICE under fire for refusing to fund new cancer drug" stories without even thinking to question where these groups spring from.

Simply put: the forums that allowed commercial vendors to drive the petitions and MEP letters were (and are) fighting with a double-edged sword.

I see what you're saying and I agree. I only read this forum, as I've always found all of the answers I need here and find it a breath of fresh air on the internet - so my own view may be biased by the fact that I have a narrow perspective of the vaping communities in the uk.

[gibla53]

A comment from the sponsor ..... saveecigs.wordpress.com/2013/11/10/whatever-happened-to-the-concept-of-the-informed-individual/

[ckc]

Nobody, not even vendors poke anyone with a big stick and say 'you have to sign this' .

We're all grown adults, as individuals we decide what we will do, if there's many that happen to write to MHRA consultation, MEP's MP's, newspapers etc that isn't done because we're paid lackeys. It's not the first time it's been said.

As for where info comes from,have they never heard of Newspapers and Google ?

[barrynorton]

I hadn't realised that Totally Wicked also paid for 30 vapers to attend the E-Cigarette Summit at the Royal Society yesterday.

One the one hand that's 10 thousand pounds of 'giving back to the community'.

On the other... isn't that exactly what an 'astroturfer' would do?