Relative strengths of different concentrate suppliers.

[tomj777]

 Friends,
Forgive me if I've missed an existing thread (or heavens forbid) sticky - if so we can move this to the dead thread zone. 

I'm early in my journey and although I've a fair (excessive?) collection of concentrates, they don't necessarily match the recipes I'm using as a starting point... However, I'm roughly using the same proportions as the recipe...

So, is there an existing table which does something like show 20% concentration from supplier A equates to 15% concentration from supplier B which equates to 3% from supplier C ?

Or in a real world example, if I have a recipe which requires 5% of CCW Carmel Toffee and I've got FA Carmel Toffee (actually just Carmel, but i'm good with the substitution)  and 4% CCW Honey and I've got FA Honey, is there a ratio which is wise to apply?

If I manage to correlate strengths, I'll build a table up in this first post for reference...

Tom

[izan]

Good luck

spreadsheets.google.com/spreadsheet/pub?key=0AkX4_hQ6Fu8HdEwwR2dLRUJlVjlabEN1NG1ucktuUVE&gid=18

Cheers
I

[tomj777]

izan Fantastic! Thank You!
This, I think, is very close to what I sought...

If I'm reading correctly, taking Banana as an example
Capella averages at 21% concentration (sample of 2)
Decadent Vapours 10% (sample of 1)
Flavour Art 5.5% (large sample, ranging from 3% to 7% with a 10% outlier)

I'm making an assumption: Each data point, I'm assuming, represents an individuals normal mix strength for a single flavour for a given supplier.
However, there are examples (for instance Sascha1975) who has placed a value for each of those suppliers in my example (Capella 20%, DKV 10%, FA 3%) which offers the opportunity to see somewhat more objective opinions.

Does the above imply that I've understood what's going on?

May I ask where you found it?

With thanks,
Tom

Anyone: Thoughts on CCW?

[Perpetua]

Jun 11, 2014 14:28:49 GMT tomj777 said:

 Thoughts on CCW?

Anything from a few drops, if it's something like Cream or Honey, which are both really overpowering - to 35% if it's a standalone/weakish flavour.

I'm not honestly a huge fan of these charts Tom, as individual tastes influence greatly the percentages mixers like to use. For me there's no substitute for trial & error and the ' lick ' test.

But that's just my personal thinking.

[cHooBeyDoo]

Jun 11, 2014 20:30:46 GMT Perpetua said:

I'm not honestly a huge fan of these charts Tom, as individual tastes influence greatly the percentages mixers like to use. For me there's no substitute for trial & error and the ' lick ' test.

But that's just my personal thinking.

I agree Perpetua.... taste is subjective etc etc, but I think it will be a good starting point for many, especially me.

I've not seen these kind of charts before and was actually wondering the same thing regarding %'s, but as i've only just started DIY I will find it quite helpful indeed without the need for pestering you seasoned mixologists too much.

Great find izan , thanks from me too

[lairey]

Jun 11, 2014 21:01:17 GMT cHooBeyDoo said:

Jun 11, 2014 20:30:46 GMT Perpetua said:

I'm not honestly a huge fan of these charts Tom, as individual tastes influence greatly the percentages mixers like to use. For me there's no substitute for trial & error and the ' lick ' test.

But that's just my personal thinking.

I agree Perpetua.... taste is subjective etc etc, but I think it will be a good starting point for many, especially me.

I've not seen these kind of charts before and was actually wondering the same thing regarding %'s, but as i've only just started DIY I will find it quite helpful indeed without the need for pestering you seasoned mixologists too much.

Great find izan , thanks from me too

Ah cHooBeyDoo, we like you pestering us

tomj777, I do a test 5ml mix of all of my concentrates at 15%, then make notes in a spreadsheet.  My only problem is I can't keep up and haven't tested all of my testers    Happy to send you, and anyone else, a copy of my spreadsheet, which also includes comments and recommended % from other people.  If you want it, just PM me with your email address

[Perpetua]

Jun 11, 2014 21:01:17 GMT cHooBeyDoo said:

Jun 11, 2014 20:30:46 GMT Perpetua said:

I'm not honestly a huge fan of these charts Tom, as individual tastes influence greatly the percentages mixers like to use. For me there's no substitute for trial & error and the ' lick ' test.

But that's just my personal thinking.

I agree Perpetua.... taste is subjective etc etc, but I think it will be a good starting point for many, especially me.

I've not seen these kind of charts before and was actually wondering the same thing regarding %'s, but as i've only just started DIY I will find it quite helpful indeed without the need for pestering you seasoned mixologists too much.

Great find izan , thanks from me too

We're all different Choobey in how we go about things and if having a chart helps in the confidence stakes, then that can only be a good thing.

Just as long as budding mixers don't take them as a definitive.

[tomj777]

I'm no longer amazed by how supportive and encouraging this forum is. I guess it's the same as a person who lives in The Empty Quarter of the Sahara Desert isn't amazed by how sunny it is (but in a very nice way, not in a "my goodness this climate isn't conducive to life") . Thank you all.

I agree absolutely everything is a subjective indicator - even in my example from the spreadsheet izan shared, where the user Sascha1975 had placed comparative concentrations for the same flavour for different suppliers (manufacturers?) it can't cover the fact that a persons ability to taste is affected by other factors (exposure to a particular taste, presence of illness, time since cleaning teeth, external smells...) and the only real way to test flavour strengths is to use a dilution method like the Scoville Scale works for Capsicin.

It's also, as you, Perpetua , said, a big confidence thing (crutch, perhaps) for the likes of myself and cHooBeyDoo as we gain experience... Although it's more than that - continuing the geographic theme, it's a bedrock on which we can build our own knowledge. To wit, lairey, yes please. I'll send a PM now.

As an aside, the only things I have done so far is use recipes with multiple flavour concentrates and start to adjust those recipes (Granny Smiths apples, rather than apples, a little more Raspberry, shifting PG/VG balance). What I have not done is make up tasters like Claire suggested.

So much to learn - so many experiments - so much joy.

Cheers,
Tom

[ronaldo]

so many flavours ................so little time ................forget it just make custard tried and tested yummmmmmmmy

[Perpetua]

I've a completely unscientific lick test that I do tomj777, with any new flavours - put a undiluted dab on my tongue and gauge how strong it seems to my taste buds. It's just something that works for me and gives me an indication of how intense a flavour might be.

That then helps me decide what percentage to mix at - if it's a combined flavour recipe, I normally aim for 20-25% in total. I use a similar percentage for ' standalone ' flavours.

Although that's not hard and fast, as some flavours are weaker/stronger than others, but it does help me.

[izan]

Hi Tom,
I don't even remember where it came from, just a link in my bookmarks... However as pointed out, taste is subjective.
I tend to mix single flavours and often use 'recommended" %'s as my starting point. Simply having it all in one place VS an extended google search is invaluable once the gloves are on and the bottles opened.

Also to keep things interesting...
It is important to taste/ vape your bases. If your nic, PG, VG, etc is "off", so will your mix be also. ... you can't make good tea with bilge water.

Have fun and Be Safe

Cheers
I

[tomj777]

Jun 12, 2014 14:15:51 GMT izan said:

Also to keep things interesting...
It is important to taste/ vape your bases. If your nic, PG, VG, etc is "off", so will your mix be also. ... you can't make good tea with bilge water.

 Gosh - never considered that....
 I keep Nicotine, PG & VG in the garage on a high shelf (really need to steal some fridge space and put the unopened Nicotine base into the freezer). 
 Juices live on the desk, at the back but now the sun is truly out to play I need to change that, me thinks.

 Are NPGVG liable to go off within say 3 months of opening?

 Incidentally, I'm very keen on Snake Oil and learnt the hard way that the original 30ml bottle shouldn't be cyclically refilled over a seven month period (yuk).

[Perpetua]

Jun 12, 2014 20:45:56 GMT tomj777 said:

Jun 12, 2014 14:15:51 GMT izan said:

Also to keep things interesting...
It is important to taste/ vape your bases. If your nic, PG, VG, etc is "off", so will your mix be also. ... you can't make good tea with bilge water.

 Gosh - never considered that....
 I keep Nicotine, PG & VG in the garage on a high shelf (really need to steal some fridge space and put the unopened Nicotine base into the freezer). 
 Juices live on the desk, at the back but now the sun is truly out to play I need to change that, me thinks.

 Are NPGVG liable to go off within say 3 months of opening?

 Incidentally, I'm very keen on Snake Oil and learnt the hard way that the original 30ml bottle shouldn't be cyclically refilled over a seven month period (yuk).

Not if they're stored in a cool dark place tomj777 . . . I've not long finished a 500ml bottle of Nicvape's VG base, it's been in a kitchen cupboard for a year probably and other than the colour changing a little, it was perfectly fine.

[izan]

Jun 12, 2014 20:45:56 GMT tomj777 said:

Jun 12, 2014 14:15:51 GMT izan said:

Also to keep things interesting...
It is important to taste/ vape your bases. If your nic, PG, VG, etc is "off", so will your mix be also. ... you can't make good tea with bilge water.

 Gosh - never considered that....
 I keep Nicotine, PG & VG in the garage on a high shelf (really need to steal some fridge space and put the unopened Nicotine base into the freezer). 
 Juices live on the desk, at the back but now the sun is truly out to play I need to change that, me thinks.

 Are NPGVG liable to go off within say 3 months of opening?

 Incidentally, I'm very keen on Snake Oil and learnt the hard way that the original 30ml bottle shouldn't be cyclically refilled over a seven month period (yuk).

T, I was more referring to the actual taste of each component. Going off is pretty rare, but contamination.... well that is another issue.
I have had nic that I could smell thru the bottle. (sprayed that on aphids). Think it was from TW but I don't remember.
I have had PG that tasted like WD-40 and some pharmacy VG that seems to have been stored with deodorized feminine hygiene products.
Point is, even fresh and new, the components MAY NOT actually be "flavourless".

Cheers
I

[chykensa]

tomj777 - you are absolutely right, there is so much to learn, and so many ways to mix!
I started off copying recipes from this forum until I felt confident enough to try a few of my own. However, I still get caught out by flavours which are obviously in others' mixing boxes and not in mine which would make such a difference to a recipe. Grapefruit for instance; I would never have considered that, my only a few days ago someone mentioned this in a very un-grapefruit recipe, and it occurred to me that it could be an important (although small in percentage terms) ingredient.
Some mixers like to keep things simple, others only mix pre-mixed concentrates, others again enjoy the concoction of new blends - that's what keeps the Mixology area fresh and exciting!