UK TPD Implementation - Have I read This Correctly?

[GunJack]

Something that was included in the Ecig Intelligence report which caught my eye was this:-

"Notification will be required for products that “contain, or could contain nicotine in the form of e-liquid”, meaning that “equipment such as mouthpieces [and] batteries” will not be subject to the notification requirement or the associated fees."

Now, to me this reads that tanks/clearos/cartos ONLY would need to be notified, rather than any mod (be it regulated or mech) as they are separate and can't contain nic....

Anyone in a position to clarify this one??

[DiscoDes]

I think you're right, only Tanks/Clearos & Cartos will require notification (approval).

It would be too difficult to require a vaping device to have this as there is such a huge array out there and the ability to "cobble together" a mod from components like a torch etc.

[nanotm]

it also leaves scope for all the parts that make up the device to be listed and sold separately, take for instance the tfv4, as a kit it would require the notification, however if it was split down to tip, top gear, glass sleeve, airflow base, rba, it requires zero notification, it could even all be sent in the same packaging so long as its all separately packaged as parts ..... which would neatly sidestep regulations on size as well, given that glass sleeves can be used in any number of applications and its not the manufacturers fault if they supply plumbing parts (visual indicator flow valves) that then get used for home build e-cigs....

can you imagine shoving coil in this wee beauty(rofl)

actually thinking about it, the same is true of most of the mixing parts and equipment, it has other uses totally separate from e-cigs (medical /baking) and the mod units could be used for a wide range of stuff (some even come as power bars with several output ports) makes you wonder if they are implementing the TPD purely because they have to and are building in enough ways round it to make it pointless at the same time

[yahoo2u2]

Yes, as expected they are after the money, the tax loss needs to be made up somewhere. The mods are tbh are more difficult to regulate or manage as its just that a mod, but the device for delivering the "tax", sorry the juice can be managed and they can also claim health risks and nicotine control.

[ceedee]

Jan 13, 2016 12:51:36 GMT DiscoDes said:

I think you're right, only Tanks/Clearos & Cartos will require notification (approval).

It would be too difficult to require a vaping device to have this as there is such a huge array out there and the ability to "cobble together" a mod from components like a torch etc.

Me too, for what it's worth. And also several people nearer the retail market.

Atomisers must still conform to the 2ml capacity (rather than volume) limit, have a small opening for refilling and someone (presumably a manufacturer) would need to fork out a not-inconsiderable sum to get a load of emissions testing and risk assessment-type paperwork completed for the MHRA to consider granting type-approval to allow them to be sold within the UK and the rest of the EU.
But, hey, what seemed virtually impossible a month back now looks vaguely possible.

Prospects for juice makers look dire however.
I've now had three people-who-ought-to-know confirm that they believe that every variant of an individual juice (eg. 3mg, 6mg, 12mg and 18mg for each pg/vg mix eg. 50/50, 35/65, 20/80) will need it's own set of expensive toxicology tests and related analyses. Lots of figures for these tests are being banded around (most I suspect are imaginary) but it looks almost inevitable to me that the costs will be enormous and way beyond the reach of all but the most profitable juice companies.

Anyway that's just what I'm picking up in chats around the place.
In case it's of any interest.

[ceedee]

Jan 13, 2016 14:29:33 GMT yahoo2u2 said:

Yes, as expected they are after the money, the tax loss needs to be made up somewhere. The mods are tbh are more difficult to regulate or manage as its just that a mod, but the device for delivering the "tax", sorry the juice can be managed and they can also claim health risks and nicotine control.

We're facing the very real prospect of going from well over a thousand juice makers producing perhaps five thousand individual juices lines down to maybe a dozen large juice houses producing maybe 250 juices, all within the next 15 months.

Potential taxation just ain't a concern right now.

[Perpetua]

Jan 14, 2016 4:20:39 GMT ceedee said:

Prospects for juice makers look dire however.
I've now had three people-who-ought-to-know confirm that they believe that every variant of an individual juice (eg. 3mg, 6mg, 12mg and 18mg for each pg/vg mix eg. 50/50, 35/65, 20/80) will need it's own set of expensive toxicology tests and related analyses. Lots of figures for these tests are being banded around (most I suspect are imaginary) but it looks almost inevitable to me that the costs will be enormous and way beyond the reach of all but the most profitable juice companies.

This unfortunately was always going to be a likely consequence of any legislation I think ceedee , many moons ago Dave Dorn and myself did a piece on Vapour Trails TV looking at just such a scenario - basing it on what had happened in the Health Shop market and the new regulation that had taken effect there. ( For example a herbal remedy such as Evening Primrose Oil - every strength of capsule, requiring testing/certification. )

How much each set of tests/approvals costs will no doubt be the deal breaker, we can only hope that they will be affordable for the majority rather than the minority, even if it should mean deleting some of the strengths from within a range.

Whatever the cost - it will be a nice little earner to swell Government coffers.

[ceedee]

Jan 14, 2016 7:00:52 GMT Perpetua said:

Jan 14, 2016 4:20:39 GMT ceedee said:

Prospects for juice makers look dire however.
I've now had three people-who-ought-to-know confirm that they believe that every variant of an individual juice (eg. 3mg, 6mg, 12mg and 18mg for each pg/vg mix eg. 50/50, 35/65, 20/80) will need it's own set of expensive toxicology tests and related analyses. Lots of figures for these tests are being banded around (most I suspect are imaginary) but it looks almost inevitable to me that the costs will be enormous and way beyond the reach of all but the most profitable juice companies.

This unfortunately was always going to be a likely consequence of any legislation I think ceedee , many moons ago Dave Dorn and myself did a piece on Vapour Trails TV looking at just such a scenario - basing it on what had happened in the Health Shop market and the new regulation that had taken effect there. ( For example a herbal remedy such as Evening Primrose Oil - every strength of capsule, requiring testing/certification. )

How much each set of tests/approvals costs will no doubt be the deal breaker, we can only hope that they will be affordable for the majority rather than the minority, even if it should mean deleting some of the strengths from within a range.

Whatever the cost - it will be a nice little earner to swell Government coffers.

I knew it would be bad but not this bad.

I thought 'they' would find a way to test say the juice without the nicotine as one element, and then just the nicotine, as another.
Rather than have to fork out for 12 bloody tests covering every possible permutation.

And all the testing will done by private labs so there won't even be a penny going to the government.  
Hell, even the MHRA's fees have been calculated only to recoup their costs administering the notification/approval scheme.

[Perpetua]

Jan 14, 2016 7:16:20 GMT ceedee said:

Jan 14, 2016 7:00:52 GMT Perpetua said:

This unfortunately was always going to be a likely consequence of any legislation I think ceedee , many moons ago Dave Dorn and myself did a piece on Vapour Trails TV looking at just such a scenario - basing it on what had happened in the Health Shop market and the new regulation that had taken effect there. ( For example a herbal remedy such as Evening Primrose Oil - every strength of capsule, requiring testing/certification. )

How much each set of tests/approvals costs will no doubt be the deal breaker, we can only hope that they will be affordable for the majority rather than the minority, even if it should mean deleting some of the strengths from within a range.

Whatever the cost - it will be a nice little earner to swell Government coffers.

I knew it would be bad but not this bad.

I thought 'they' would find a way to test say the juice without the nicotine as one element, and then just the nicotine, as another.
Rather than have to fork out for 12 bloody tests covering every possible permutation.

And all the testing will done by private labs so there won't even be a penny going to the government.  
Hell, even the MHRA's fees have been calculated only to recoup their costs administering the notification/approval scheme.

Way too easy that!

Perhaps I'm just cynical . . . . but I'd be very surprised if there isn't a ' kick back ' in some form to the Government, by whoever does the testing. They'll probably be Government approved private labs at the very least.

[nanotm]

Jan 14, 2016 7:23:42 GMT Perpetua said:

Jan 14, 2016 7:16:20 GMT ceedee said:

I knew it would be bad but not this bad.

I thought 'they' would find a way to test say the juice without the nicotine as one element, and then just the nicotine, as another.
Rather than have to fork out for 12 bloody tests covering every possible permutation.

And all the testing will done by private labs so there won't even be a penny going to the government.  
Hell, even the MHRA's fees have been calculated only to recoup their costs administering the notification/approval scheme.

Way too easy that!

Perhaps I'm just cynical . . . . but I'd be very surprised if there isn't a ' kick back ' in some form to the Government, by whoever does the testing. They'll probably be Government approved private labs at the very least.

being an absolute cynic, the sale of GCMS machines will need to take place (creating tax revenues) people will need employment and buildings will need to be leased (all creating tax revenues) current labs will need to expand massively to cope with the extra workload, which would all take months if not years to achieve (because your talking about someone getting funding in the millions to achieve this) which is why they said notification only with selective testing rather rather than approval with 100% testing.

hopefully all those juice makers will get together and respond to the MHRA's consultation in the same way and push for the more lenient regimes, and suggest that any testing undertaken (random sampling) will be paid for by the testing agency with any recoverable funds being provided by the tobacco sellers (a new levy can be raised for it) since there big enough to have billions in profits registered from sales in the UK. that would then protect the juice companies and allow them to continue, especially since tobacco prices are due to rise in the budget by another £1 a pop ..... which will drive more than ever towards cheaper alternatives

anyhow it seems the gov is fully prepared for the loss in tobacco taxation with the introduction of sugar taxes which will probably make more than tobacco tax does anyway ....

[jtc]

Jan 14, 2016 4:26:41 GMT ceedee said:

Jan 13, 2016 14:29:33 GMT yahoo2u2 said:

Yes, as expected they are after the money, the tax loss needs to be made up somewhere. The mods are tbh are more difficult to regulate or manage as its just that a mod, but the device for delivering the "tax", sorry the juice can be managed and they can also claim health risks and nicotine control.

We're facing the very real prospect of going from well over a thousand juice makers producing perhaps five thousand individual juices lines down to maybe a dozen large juice houses producing maybe 250 juices, all within the next 15 months.

Potential taxation just ain't a concern right now.

Sorry but I disagree
It's always been about robbing us for tax.
If 8 million smokers start vaping then 8 million people potentially live a lot longer retirement.
The world powers are flapping about paying for that and imo that's why we will all be prey for the tax man.
They are rubbing their hands with glee about this.
Innovation of decent kit may well take a hit but for the most part I think we are pretty satisfied with our setups these days.
Just when we are seeing a massive influx of noobs vaping they are going to take full advantage of it

[GunJack]

We've kind of digressed a bit here, can anyone (vendors maybe?) who've been involved in discussions/consultations shed any light on the mods issue??

[yahoo2u2]

Jan 14, 2016 4:26:41 GMT ceedee said:

Jan 13, 2016 14:29:33 GMT yahoo2u2 said:

Yes, as expected they are after the money, the tax loss needs to be made up somewhere. The mods are tbh are more difficult to regulate or manage as its just that a mod, but the device for delivering the "tax", sorry the juice can be managed and they can also claim health risks and nicotine control.

We're facing the very real prospect of going from well over a thousand juice makers producing perhaps five thousand individual juices lines down to maybe a dozen large juice houses producing maybe 250 juices, all within the next 15 months.

Potential taxation just ain't a concern right now.

I think you missed my point. The loss of or massive reduction in juices will inevitably make the following happen IMHO:
New vapers will go back to smoking.
Potential vapers will stay smoking.
Money made for the testing will bolster the coffers
Its not all about short term incomes

I have no doubt in the loss of juices.

I have said for a long time since the first inceptions of the TPD, that this was never ever about health, but wealth and not ours. The governments around the world did not see the potential of ecigs. They were a gimmick, faf and probably going to fade away.

OOOPs did they get that wrong.

But it took them quite a while to really catch on and by the time they did, the vaping community was growing faster than anyone could have expected.

So as said they now have a potential blackhole that is getting bigger and bigger.

[robby]

Jan 14, 2016 9:21:07 GMT GunJack said:

We've kind of digressed a bit here, can anyone (vendors maybe?) who've been involved in discussions/consultations shed any light on the mods issue??

The general consensus (from what I have seen on my web travels ) seems to be that mods will be okay. All this political chatter is just banging our heads against a brick wall and getting us absolutely no where.