About non-smokers who became vapers: do they use nicotine?

[Get Off My Cloud]

I'm sure nicotine is probably addictive but as with most things it's a matter of degree.
Nicotine by itself is probably less addictive than smoking, i mean there's a reason that Nicotine Replacement Therapy like gum or patches is a thing right?
You use the NRT to help with cravings from smoking and the NRT is easier to kick than smoking is.
And at the end of the day just being addictive doesn't equate to dangerous or unhealthy.

The same with toxicity, technically every element and compound in existence is toxic it's a matter of dosage.
A substance can actually be healthy for you or even vital to life at a certain dosage level but deadly at another.

Terms like addictive or toxic are kind of weasel words really from the morality police and can actually have an adverse effect.

Take Heroin as an example, if you look at the actual medical side effects from pharmaceutical Heroin there really is none other than it can cause constipation, there's no medical evidence it damages the liver, heart or any other internal organs, accidental overdose is extremely unlikely a fatal dosage would require someone to inject around 3 times as much as they normally would.
Virtually all the dangers associated with it are a result of prohibition and street heroin, unregulated manufacturing conditions, unregulated or unknown additives or bulking agents, not knowing the strength/purity leads to overdose.
The criminalisation of users leads to lower prospects of employment meaning users turn to crime, poverty causes homelessness and living in unhygienic conditions which leads to poor diet and infections, sharing needles or using dirty needles leads to infection.

Why was it prohibited? because it is "addictive".
Sure it's addictive but so what?
What's the greater harm here, that someone is addicted to a substance they can use safely with no real significant medical side effect or issue or prohibiting it which leads to addicts with major health issues, poverty, death and crime?

[Deleted]

Mar 26, 2017 21:35:22 GMT GunJack said:

Mar 26, 2017 19:40:09 GMT Tomo said:

Nicotine is highly addictive and I find it strange that people think/believe different. It's a scientific proven fact so please change your beliefs.The jury is out on whether it's bad for you. Maybe like caffeine and alcohol (the other 2 legal drugs) just something you need to keep in moderation.
It is very worrying if people are getting addicted to nicotine via vaping and not smoking.
From research the amount of nicotine in the vapour from e-cigs is insignificant and the harm is nothing compared to that from cigarette smoke or even car fumes.

If nicotine itself is highly addictive, how come there have been no reported cases of people on clinical trials of nrt becoming addicted? They have been on it for months at a time and no addiction.

Take the nicotine out of the smoke and it has nothing like the addictive properties, its more like caffine.

Hello

Why do many vapers need their nicotine in their vapour? For the taste?

[Deleted]

Mar 26, 2017 21:47:57 GMT sydsut said:

Mar 26, 2017 19:40:09 GMT Tomo said:

Nicotine is highly addictive and I find it strange that people think/believe different. It's a scientific proven fact so please change your beliefs.The jury is out on whether it's bad for you. Maybe like caffeine and alcohol (the other 2 legal drugs) just something you need to keep in moderation.
It is very worrying if people are getting addicted to nicotine via vaping and not smoking.
From research the amount of nicotine in the vapour from e-cigs is insignificant and the harm is nothing compared to that from cigarette smoke or even car fumes.

Sorry to disillusion you Tomo but that isn't really the case. All the many studies on the addictiveness of nicotine until very recently, were in relation to tobacco and smoking. It's only recently that studies have been done on nicotine alone, the first of these carried out on NRT patches, liquids, gums, pills etc. and have started to show that it isn't as addictive as first thought. I suggest you read through the thread I alluded to in the above post, and look through the numerous articles in there on just "how addictive is nicotine". There's loads of them throughout the thread. All that can be said clearly is that nicotine when smoked in tobacco, is highly addictive.

Hello Sydsut

If nicotine in vapour is much less addictive than in smoke, what's the point in absorbing nicotine in vapour then?
What does that nicotine bring to vapers?
(I just wish to understand, thank you.)

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2017 6:24:37 GMT DaveJ said:

I ain't no scientist, Tomo , but my idle thoughts anyway.

First, I'd strongly agree that for me smoking tobacco was highly addictive. Withdraw was a bitch.

I've also read numerous comments that many "additions" are made to modern commercial cigarette tobacco to "supercharge" the uptake of nicotine - either to improve the speed of takeup (that fast hit), or to increase the addictive properties of the nicotine. Lots of chemicals and compounds - many, I fear, are added without thought of their (health) effects on the users.

I've read comments of studies that claim to have tried to "hook" lab rats to nicotine without success.

NRT products (gum, mist, patches) that use nic without the other "additions" are rated by the various governing bodies around the world as being safe for extended use without script or supervision. They are deemed safe enough that they are readily available on supermarket shelves for anyone to help themselves.

I've read comments about US Indian Reservation grown tobacco produced without our modern commercial chemical additives - apparently quite the thriving industry in some areas around the US - failing to addict folk to the same degree as modern commercial cigarettes that we are familiar with.

I know I felt withdrawal from something after switching to vaping even though I was getting more than sufficient nic. For me, that craving continued to occur for a good long while after I switched - well more than a year. Maybe it was the "WTAs" (whole tobacco alkaloids) maybe something else. I donno, but it was very real for me.

Fact is I feel far better after switching to vaping nic and I now feel less addicted than when I smoked tobacco. All the rest, I donno *shrug*

As far as never smokers vaping nic? Well, I'd advise against it as being unnecessary, but I'd be the last to try to control it. I want Vaping nic available for me (and others like me) so who am I to suggest others ought not have the right to access what I wish to continue to use?

Hello DaveJ

Regarding your last paragraph here, I just wish the vapers who want no nicotine in their e-liquid can keep on getting it on sale.
= no obligation of nicotine content in sold e-liquids.

If nicotine in vapour is much less addictive, why need it in one's own vapour then?

[Get Off My Cloud]

For the same reason people drink coffee with caffeine in it, it adds nothing to taste they drink it because of it's stimulant properties.
Nicotine is actually both a stimulant and a sedative.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2017 6:29:54 GMT chykensa said:

Tomo - I think that's the point; like a high percentage of the population, you (and I) are confused because that's just the way the Big Tobacco companies want us to be. If they load tobacco cigarettes with chemicals to raise the addictive levels of the nicotine (proven fact), then as djs says, point the finger of blame at the smokers rather than themselves, you have a situation where society begins to believe the "nicotine is highly addictive" statement.
I now vape 1mg/ml 0.1% nicotine and find that I can go for a day without getting the merest itch to vape. Why do I continue to vape, you ask? Because I enjoy the process and the vapour production, not because I am still addicted to (a miniscule amount of) nicotine. In time I will cut out the nic completely and go 0mg, but will no doubt continue to vape, just for pleasure.

Hello Chykensa

I thank you very much for your answer.

As I see it, a synergy f chemicals around nicotine is the chemical addictive cocktail.

As I see it, there's not only the chemical addiction: there's the gestual addiction too, seeing/watching/observing/displaying that smoke (or alike) and else. I discuss that aspect in:
allaboute-cigarettes.proboards.com/thread/67329/vapers-necessarily-vapor-breathe-out?page=2&scrollTo=1158691


As I see it, nicotine in vapour is much less addictive than in smoke but still is addictive.

I quote, "I now vape 1mg/ml 0.1% nicotine and find that I can go for a day without getting the merest itch to vape. Why do I continue to vape, you ask? Because I enjoy the process and the vapour production, not because I am still addicted to (a miniscule amount of) nicotine. In time I will cut out the nic completely and go 0mg, but will no doubt continue to vape, just for pleasure. "

Very informative, thank you again, Chykensa.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2017 7:06:30 GMT Get Off My Cloud said:

I'm sure nicotine is probably addictive but as with most things it's a matter of degree.
Nicotine by itself is probably less addictive than smoking, i mean there's a reason that Nicotine Replacement Therapy like gum or patches is a thing right?
You use the NRT to help with cravings from smoking and the NRT is easier to kick than smoking is.
And at the end of the day just being addictive doesn't equate to dangerous or unhealthy.

The same with toxicity, technically every element and compound in existence is toxic it's a matter of dosage.
A substance can actually be healthy for you or even vital to life at a certain dosage level but deadly at another.

Terms like addictive or toxic are kind of weasel words really from the morality police and can actually have an adverse effect.

Take Heroin as an example, if you look at the actual medical side effects from pharmaceutical Heroin there really is none other than it can cause constipation, there's no medical evidence it damages the liver, heart or any other internal organs, accidental overdose is extremely unlikely a fatal dosage would require someone to inject around 3 times as much as they normally would.
Virtually all the dangers associated with it are a result of prohibition and street heroin, unregulated manufacturing conditions, unregulated or unknown additives or bulking agents, not knowing the strength/purity leads to overdose.
The criminalisation of users leads to lower prospects of employment meaning users turn to crime, poverty causes homelessness and living in unhygienic conditions which leads to poor diet and infections, sharing needles or using dirty needles leads to infection.

Why was it prohibited? because it is "addictive".
Sure it's addictive but so what?
What's the greater harm here, that someone is addicted to a substance they can use safely with no real significant medical side effect or issue or prohibiting it which leads to addicts with major health issues, poverty, death and crime?

Hello

Regarding heroin: just like nicotine, the French Wikipedia page displays a death skull pictogram while the English wikipedia page displays no pictogram:
fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/H%C3%A9ro%C3%AFne

Regarding the addictiveness and toxicity of such substances, there doesn't seem to be any universal reliable source at this stage.

[DaveJ]

Mar 27, 2017 9:04:44 GMT @anton said:

...
Hello DaveJ

Regarding your last paragraph here, I just wish the vapers who want no nicotine in their e-liquid can keep on getting it on sale.
= no obligation of nicotine content in sold e-liquids.

AS far as I am aware, there is always the option to Do It Yourself nic-free juice wherever you are. In my country, nic-free is the only legal option.

In your case, flavourless, nic-free e-liquid = VG (perhaps with some PG too). They will always be available.

Mar 27, 2017 9:04:44 GMT @anton said:

If nicotine in vapour is much less addictive, why need it in one's own vapour then?

In my case, after many years of smoking, I was hooked on nicotine AND ATOSIT (All The Other Shit In Tobacco). The nic in my vape eased that withdraw very significantly and made it possible for me to quit smoking. I notice the lack of nicotine if I mix incorrectly, even now, because I was hooked by cigarettes and all that other stuff they had in 'em.

Never-smokers, though (according to all I have read) are far less likely to, if at all, become hooked when vaping with nicotine. Not that I'd recommend folk do so as it is simply unnecessary.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2017 9:34:15 GMT DaveJ said:

Mar 27, 2017 9:04:44 GMT @anton said:

...
Hello DaveJ

Regarding your last paragraph here, I just wish the vapers who want no nicotine in their e-liquid can keep on getting it on sale.
= no obligation of nicotine content in sold e-liquids.

AS far as I am aware, there is always the option to Do It Yourself nic-free juice wherever you are. In my country, nic-free is the only legal option.

In your case, flavourless, nic-free e-liquid = VG (perhaps with some PG too). They will always be available.

Mar 27, 2017 9:04:44 GMT @anton said:

If nicotine in vapour is much less addictive, why need it in one's own vapour then?

In my case, after many years of smoking, I was hooked on nicotine AND ATOSIT (All The Other Shit In Tobacco). The nic in my vape eased that withdraw very significantly and made it possible for me to quit smoking. I notice the lack of nicotine if I mix incorrectly, even now, because I was hooked by cigarettes and all that other stuff they had in 'em.

Never-smokers, though (according to all I have read) are far less likely to, if at all, become hooked when vaping with nicotine. Not that I'd recommend folk do so as it is simply unnecessary.

(Thank you very much for the private message you've sent me, by the way. I'll keep you informed.)

I could find the nicotine-free flavorless e-liquid I needed but I had to order it. It's taking about a week to get it. It's fine I'm not in a "hurry" ^^
That e-liquid is 70PG/30VG, called a "base". It's relatively cheap here in France.


Indeed: that daemonic cocktail 'nicotine and atosit'. This is all complex.

As I see it, by extrapolating: many of the former smokers (who were addicted to nicotine & atosit) who vape with nicotine are still addicted to nicotine but less.
Without mentioning gestual addiction.

Addiction is obviously not only chemical.

All in all, pleasure and freedom is key in vaping

[GunJack]

Mar 27, 2017 8:45:19 GMT @anton said:

Mar 26, 2017 21:35:22 GMT GunJack said:

If nicotine itself is highly addictive, how come there have been no reported cases of people on clinical trials of nrt becoming addicted? They have been on it for months at a time and no addiction.

Take the nicotine out of the smoke and it has nothing like the addictive properties, its more like caffine.

Hello

Why do many vapers need their nicotine in their vapour? For the taste?

partly for throat-hit, but mainly (I suspect) to get over the addictive properties of ATOSIT tbh

[lobeydosser]

According to the medical professionals at our local surgery, the 2 most dangerous substances in cigarettes are Chocolate and Liquorice.
These, when eaten are okay, but when burnt, produce a chemical that relaxes the throat muscles, widening the throat and allowing more smoke deep into the lungs. This gives the smoker a greater sense of satisfaction.
This makes sense to me because the lack of this sensation was one of the factors as to why I did not get the same satisfaction when I first tried Vaping.
There were ofcourse other factors including not getting enough nicotine to satisfy my needs and it was some time before I cottoned onto the fact that I could buy a higher strength e-juice and refill my Cartos at a strength that did satisfy me completely.

There are many factors as to why people start smoking and likewise many factors in changing to vaping, but these 2 "hobbies" are different in a number of respects and because of these differences, we have a wide variety of aims and goals, methods and equipment to achieve these goals.

It is hard to imagine walking into a Tobacconist 20 odd years ago and asking for a packet of 20, low nicotine, pineapple flavoured Benson & Hedges with a hint of Menthol!!!!!
The fact that we could vape the equivalent today is a miracle. The fact that we can then come onto a forum and discuss the said concoction is even more of a miracle.

The "Facts" about Vaping and its consequences will go on for many years to come and whether folks are right or wrong in what they believe is immaterial. The "fact" that it is working for them is all that is important.
If you believe it, then go for it.

[Deleted]

Mar 27, 2017 11:13:32 GMT GunJack said:

Mar 27, 2017 8:45:19 GMT @anton said:

Hello

Why do many vapers need their nicotine in their vapour? For the taste?

partly for throat-hit, but mainly (I suspect) to get over the addictive properties of ATOSIT tbh

My understanding is: the more PG%, the more intense throat-hit.

When I used nicotine in vaping or nicotine patches, I felt that special feeling in my mouth, a pleasant salivation.
I think it's the main pleasure associated with nicotine itself.

Thoughts?

[Postmodern Smoking]

Mar 27, 2017 11:23:13 GMT @anton said:

My understanding is: the more PG%, the more intense throat-hit.

That's correct, but nicotine also contributes to throat hit.

[izan]

Mar 27, 2017 11:22:52 GMT lobeydosser said:

It is hard to imagine walking into a Tobacconist 20 odd years ago and asking for a packet of 20, low nicotine, pineapple flavoured Benson & Hedges with a hint of Menthol!!!!!

Almost hard to imagine remember...

[sydsut]

Mar 27, 2017 8:52:55 GMT @anton said:

Mar 26, 2017 21:47:57 GMT sydsut said:

Sorry to disillusion you Tomo but that isn't really the case. All the many studies on the addictiveness of nicotine until very recently, were in relation to tobacco and smoking. It's only recently that studies have been done on nicotine alone, the first of these carried out on NRT patches, liquids, gums, pills etc. and have started to show that it isn't as addictive as first thought. I suggest you read through the thread I alluded to in the above post, and look through the numerous articles in there on just "how addictive is nicotine". There's loads of them throughout the thread. All that can be said clearly is that nicotine when smoked in tobacco, is highly addictive.

Hello Sydsut

If nicotine in vapour is much less addictive than in smoke, what's the point in absorbing nicotine in vapour then?
What does that nicotine bring to vapers?
(I just wish to understand, thank you.)

I'm now mostly vaping 3mg and 0mg e-liquids, though I started on 24mg nearly three years ago, and I don't get cravings any more. So I'm afraid I don't have an answer to your question.