About non-smokers who became vapers: do they use nicotine?

[Bob]

Mar 26, 2017 16:25:44 GMT Postmodern Smoking said:

Mar 26, 2017 16:17:51 GMT @anton said:

Well, the root question is: is nicotine in vapour addictive to humans?

I believe that nicotine in vaper is addictive, just like caffeine is in tea/coffee, although significantly less addictive compared to smoking (where lots of other alkaloids and chemicals are at work). I also suspect that the degree of addictiveness may vary between people.

[ETA] Is nicotine bad for you.... now that's another question!

Not sure if that has been proved yet, some think that nicotine is NOT addictive in eLiquid and as for being bad for you, I think it's no more harmful than the caffeine in your drink.

[sydsut]

Mar 26, 2017 16:25:44 GMT Postmodern Smoking said:

Mar 26, 2017 16:17:51 GMT @anton said:

Well, the root question is: is nicotine in vapour addictive to humans?

I believe that nicotine in vaper is addictive, just like caffeine is in tea/coffee, although significantly less addictive compared to smoking (where lots of other alkaloids and chemicals are at work). I also suspect that the degree of addictiveness may vary between people.

[ETA] Is nicotine bad for you.... now that's another question!

Everything is bad for you if taken to excess. Drink too much water and it will kill you. The air we breathe in on an average city street contains loads of toxic chemicals for instance. And in answer to the question on how addictive is nicotine @anton , well you've managed to give it up so for you, not all that addictive. Truly addictive substances would have you screaming and suffering in agony on their withdrawal. Also research is being carried out at present to ascertain whether or not nicotine can help with the onset of Alzheimers. A good read of this thread vapers.org.uk - Nothing About Us. Without Us.  will help you to understand that there is a lot of rubbish and downright lies printed in newspapers and shown on the TV about vaping, and that there are a lot of vested interests in keeping people smoking, not least Governments who rely heavily on Tobacco Tax.

[Postmodern Smoking]

My belief (at the moment) Bob is that nicotine in eliquid is addictive is that I think that it has some addictive properties, but I am willing to be proven wrong ... but I certainly disagree strongly that nicotine, in itself, is highly addictive (as portrayed on the new TPD packaging    ).

Regarding the question I posed re. whether nicotine is bad for you... (again in my opinion), not particularly; it's found in many foodstuffs (egg plant, tomatoes, etc.), and as sydsut mentions there may actually be some benefit in it's consumption, although more research is required. 

I have always believed that the greatest risk to us is probably the unknowns of inhaling some flavourings, although compared with smoking, I believe (as do Public Health England and others) that these will be small.

[Deleted]

Mar 26, 2017 16:58:36 GMT Bob said:

We have some that come into our cafe/vape shop that have not smoked, they prefer zero nic, but will use up to 3mg if no zero available in the flavours they want

Very informative. Thank you, Bob

[Postmodern Smoking]

Mar 26, 2017 17:53:57 GMT @anton said:

Mar 26, 2017 16:58:36 GMT Bob said:

We have some that come into our cafe/vape shop that have not smoked, they prefer zero nic, but will use up to 3mg if no zero available in the flavours they want

Very informative. Thank you, Bob

(3mg/ml = 0.3% nicotine)

[Deleted]

Mar 26, 2017 17:37:37 GMT Postmodern Smoking said:

My belief (at the moment) Bob is that nicotine in eliquid is addictive is that I think that it has some addictive properties, but I am willing to be proven wrong ... but I certainly disagree strongly that nicotine, in itself, is highly addictive (as portrayed on the new TPD packaging    ).

Regarding the question I posed re. whether nicotine is bad for you... (again in my opinion), not particularly; it's found in many foodstuffs (egg plant, tomatoes, etc.), and as sydsut mentions there may actually be some benefit in it's consumption, although more research is required. 

I have always believed that the greatest risk to us is probably the unknowns of inhaling some flavourings, although compared with smoking, I believe (as do Public Health England and others) that these will be small.

Regarding your reasoning, Dave:
Eggplant, tomato, ...: the dose of nicotine in there is much lower than that of tobacco and e-liquids with nicotine.
"The dose does (or doesn't) make the poison."
I may spend time again to get the "official LD50 (median lethal dose)" for nicotine in humans. But again, sources must be questioned.

In this topic, I wonder about the people who have never smoked who deliberately choose vaping with nicotine.
bob has brought an interesting answer (they'rre originally not interested in vaping with nicotine but if no nicotine-free e-liquid is available, they choose e-liquids with a lowest content of nicotine available).
@djs has brought the idea some people are statistically destined to absorb nicotine anyway (by vaping or smoking).

(Please correct me if wrong ^^)

[Postmodern Smoking]

A couple of links re. nicotine's toxicity : HERE and HERE, I've seen results of other toxicologists come up with even milder material safety data sheets (MSDS) for solutions of 7.2% nicotine than ECITA's consultants @anton

Re. eggplant, tomatoes, etc. I wasn't trying to infer toxicity (as yes, toxicity depends on dose), more commenting that we all (most of us), largely unknowingly, consume some nicotine outside of vaping/tobacco. I have yet to see any research indicate that nicotine (on its own is particularly 'bad', at the levels we absorb through vaping).

[Tomo]

Nicotine is highly addictive and I find it strange that people think/believe different. It's a scientific proven fact so please change your beliefs.The jury is out on whether it's bad for you. Maybe like caffeine and alcohol (the other 2 legal drugs) just something you need to keep in moderation.
It is very worrying if people are getting addicted to nicotine via vaping and not smoking.
From research the amount of nicotine in the vapour from e-cigs is insignificant and the harm is nothing compared to that from cigarette smoke or even car fumes.

[GunJack]

Mar 26, 2017 19:40:09 GMT Tomo said:

Nicotine is highly addictive and I find it strange that people think/believe different. It's a scientific proven fact so please change your beliefs.The jury is out on whether it's bad for you. Maybe like caffeine and alcohol (the other 2 legal drugs) just something you need to keep in moderation.
It is very worrying if people are getting addicted to nicotine via vaping and not smoking.
From research the amount of nicotine in the vapour from e-cigs is insignificant and the harm is nothing compared to that from cigarette smoke or even car fumes.

If nicotine itself is highly addictive, how come there have been no reported cases of people on clinical trials of nrt becoming addicted? They have been on it for months at a time and no addiction.

Take the nicotine out of the smoke and it has nothing like the addictive properties, its more like caffine.

[beedee]

The interplay between the psychological and physical factors in any addiction are not very well understood at all, and there have been a few studies that indictate that the physical factors in nicotine addiction have been vastly overestimated.

Also, 100 years ago it was scientific fact that women could not be educated to a high degree because of their wombs, in 1974 it was still a scientific fact that being gay was a psychiatric illness (check the Diagnostic Statistical Manual from that time) and in the 1920s it was a scientific fact that none white races are inherently genetically superior to none whites...

A lot of suffering, prejudice and misunderstanding has been founded on 'scientific fact'.... scientists are just people, and they are just as influenced by error and societal pressures as the rest of us.

that turned into a bit of a sermon.....

[sydsut]

Mar 26, 2017 19:40:09 GMT Tomo said:

Nicotine is highly addictive and I find it strange that people think/believe different. It's a scientific proven fact so please change your beliefs.The jury is out on whether it's bad for you. Maybe like caffeine and alcohol (the other 2 legal drugs) just something you need to keep in moderation.
It is very worrying if people are getting addicted to nicotine via vaping and not smoking.
From research the amount of nicotine in the vapour from e-cigs is insignificant and the harm is nothing compared to that from cigarette smoke or even car fumes.

Sorry to disillusion you Tomo but that isn't really the case. All the many studies on the addictiveness of nicotine until very recently, were in relation to tobacco and smoking. It's only recently that studies have been done on nicotine alone, the first of these carried out on NRT patches, liquids, gums, pills etc. and have started to show that it isn't as addictive as first thought. I suggest you read through the thread I alluded to in the above post, and look through the numerous articles in there on just "how addictive is nicotine". There's loads of them throughout the thread. All that can be said clearly is that nicotine when smoked in tobacco, is highly addictive.

[djs]

Mar 26, 2017 21:47:57 GMT sydsut said:

All that can be said clearly is that nicotine when smoked in tobacco, is highly addictive.

Yes, that's the point really.

40 or more years of deliberately making cigarettes more addictive and tobacco companies relying on the old chestnut; "Nicotine is highly addictive" because what that means is "Don't blame us, we sell you a legal product, it's not our fault you can't stop"...

[Tomo]

So nicotine addiction through smoking cigarettes is proven but not for none tobacco products? So if a person that has never smoked a cigarette took nicotine via vaping there would be no addiction?
Must admit that I'm a little confused then since like @anton alludes there are many warnings that nicotine is dangerous and highly addictive. Many health sites say this www.churnmag.com/news/should-you-be-worried-about-nicotine-addiction-from-vaping/. Then you read other sites that give a different perspective www.ecigarette-politics.com/is-nicotine-addictive.html
Very confused

[DaveJ]

I ain't no scientist, Tomo , but my idle thoughts anyway.

First, I'd strongly agree that for me smoking tobacco was highly addictive. Withdraw was a bitch.

I've also read numerous comments that many "additions" are made to modern commercial cigarette tobacco to "supercharge" the uptake of nicotine - either to improve the speed of takeup (that fast hit), or to increase the addictive properties of the nicotine. Lots of chemicals and compounds - many, I fear, are added without thought of their (health) effects on the users.

I've read comments of studies that claim to have tried to "hook" lab rats to nicotine without success.

NRT products (gum, mist, patches) that use nic without the other "additions" are rated by the various governing bodies around the world as being safe for extended use without script or supervision. They are deemed safe enough that they are readily available on supermarket shelves for anyone to help themselves.

I've read comments about US Indian Reservation grown tobacco produced without our modern commercial chemical additives - apparently quite the thriving industry in some areas around the US - failing to addict folk to the same degree as modern commercial cigarettes that we are familiar with.

I know I felt withdrawal from something after switching to vaping even though I was getting more than sufficient nic. For me, that craving continued to occur for a good long while after I switched - well more than a year. Maybe it was the "WTAs" (whole tobacco alkaloids) maybe something else. I donno, but it was very real for me.

Fact is I feel far better after switching to vaping nic and I now feel less addicted than when I smoked tobacco. All the rest, I donno *shrug*

As far as never smokers vaping nic? Well, I'd advise against it as being unnecessary, but I'd be the last to try to control it. I want Vaping nic available for me (and others like me) so who am I to suggest others ought not have the right to access what I wish to continue to use?

[chykensa]

Tomo - I think that's the point; like a high percentage of the population, you (and I) are confused because that's just the way the Big Tobacco companies want us to be. If they load tobacco cigarettes with chemicals to raise the addictive levels of the nicotine (proven fact), then as djs says, point the finger of blame at the smokers rather than themselves, you have a situation where society begins to believe the "nicotine is highly addictive" statement.
I now vape 1mg/ml 0.1% nicotine and find that I can go for a day without getting the merest itch to vape. Why do I continue to vape, you ask? Because I enjoy the process and the vapour production, not because I am still addicted to (a miniscule amount of) nicotine. In time I will cut out the nic completely and go 0mg, but will no doubt continue to vape, just for pleasure.