The great bottle shot trick....

[ghostrider1971]

Forgive me if this is too controversial or develops in to an unfair or irrational rant

Vaping has been through a number of, dare I say, "rip off" stages - for example 99% of "premium juice"

The whole concept of the "bottle shot" absolutely fascinates me....for all the wrong reasons....

Unless I am mistaken, this is a plastic bottle (pennies from Lucemill), optional VG/PG (pennies from anywhere) and "N" amount of concentrate (available at reasonable prices from numerous vendors....)

So, the most expensive ingredient (i.e. the nicotine) has been taken out and these "bottle shots" are going for 12-15 quid in places for 50ml?

I'm pretty sure I can make up 100ml of juice, with nicotine, for around a fiver. The "bottle shot" sellers, buying at wholesale rather than my retail, must see this as an absolute licence to print money?

I understand that some people don't want to do DIY. I understand some people like to add a "nicotine shot" and shake and go......but the mark-up on these "bottle shots" must be absolutely phenomenal?

The Emperor's new vape......?

[pj1967]

I was thinking exactly the same thing

[Postmodern Smoking]

Concentrates are more expensive generally than Swiss nicotine.

I guess that the bottle shot has arisen firstly because of the stupid 10ml bottle size limit on nicotine containing liquids; many vapers find a 10ml bottle too small. And secondly (for some manufacturers) as a way around testing/registration of the product.

So they are aimed mainly at non/reluctant DIYers.

But as with readymade e-liquid there appears to be generous margins.

[djs]

I agree.

Then again, we all pay £2.90 for 16 pence-worth of coffee.

Or, £650 for a £198 phone.

We do it to ourselves, time and time again. You either choose to play the game or not. Mostly, I choose not.

- -

On topic. As I remember, the last batch of juice I made cost me a lot more in the flavor than the nicotine... but of course, I have pre-TPD nicotine.

[domesticextremist]

Yep, a rip off.

Even nic is not as expensive as we have become used to paying - it's only because it is "pharma grade" and in demand for vapers, but I'm sure in bulk it isn't a fraction of the cost, just like PG and VG which are basically industrial chemicals avaible for less than £1/litre.
Don't forget it is widely used in huge quantities as a non-systemic insecticide, I don't think farmers are paying anywhere near as much as we do per litre

If anything, the costly bit is the flavourant package, plus the invetment of time to formulate and maybe registration costs for TPD.
That being said, those costs might be better recouped selling more juice at lower costs.
Poundland manages to sell juice for £1 per 10 ml, some of which are not entirely horrible, so those "premium" juice need to be very special indeed to justify the £3-£5+ price tag. As has been revealed by the pre-TPD sales, most of them are not.

[lobeydosser]

Costs for 100ml for a 70/30 mix works as;-
NicBase...90p
PG...........8p
VG..........11p
Flavour....£2,00

Total....£3.09p

Daily Cost....9.27p on average.

[DaveJ]

This discussion has also come up periodically in Oz circles before now too.

It is obviously true that the cost of raw materials is often far less than the retail price of the final product. Of course, there needs to be an allowance for factors like the maker's overheads (property, power, rates and taxes) which will obviously load the base material cost. Then there is the price to pay for the maker's skill. The problem is, just what is a "fair and reasonable" markup for that?

To explain further using a different example. I look at a beautiful handmade stab wood mod made by one of the well known highly regarded makers. I see about, oh, 30 dollars of materials yet it will have an asking price many times that. I'd be paying for the makers "overhead" costs (tools, power and such) as well as a significant something toward his particular skills and artistry. Having completed a simple mod of my own (with Laurie), I can say there is a lot of time and skill required to get a decent final product together. How do you put a value on that skill?

For juices? That extra money goes toward the maker's skill in blending - they being able to mix those ingredients to make a flavour. Some can do that with apparent ease. Others, like myself, cannot. What price do you put on that skill? That's the core of the discussion.

I guess, in the end, it's really up to the buyer to evaluate. Normal commercial market forces should decide if the price is too high. In short, in an unregulated market, the seller can ask whatever they like. It is up to the buyer to choose to pay that amount or not.

[decoy]

its like anything in this world they will get what they can
ive never paid for premium juice but i was luck nuff the have a shop near me that mixed there own and did not charge silly money for it(pre tpd)
i mix my own now(just discovered drip hacks but its a tad expensive lol)
my main bug bare was tw prices that my mum was paying ,she now spending a tenth of what she was now i mix it for her
now DaveJ mentioned the skill time and effort taken to make something and with a hand made mod made out of unicorn horn i agree with him but a bit of threaded tube with a switch slapped on one end a hole tapped hole on the other is not worth 100 odd quid
i see pre made so called premium juice as a ripp off ,evan when i use drip hacks concentrate i can knock up 200 ml of juice for about 7 or 8 quid or better still how much do you save when you mix your own red astaire
tbh i do see most of the ecig market as a rip off and find it funny when so makers of genuine kit mone about the cloners,all ill say on that one is if that can make it and sell it for that price then maybe your charging to much

if you want to pay silly money for smoke then thats up to you but i dont rem ciggys tasting good when i started smokein lol

[Perpetua]

If you're used to paying anything up to ( and over ) £20.00 for a 30ml bottle of readymade  - then bottle shots probably don't seem so costly to you and for the makers who haven't registered their products for TPD compliance, then to stay in business they likely need to be charging epic prices!

Some of the flavour houses are no better, Chefs stopped selling Flavour Monks not long ago and The Ecig Shop have discontinued Flavorah recently. In both cases because they were demanding a MRP which both thought were unreasonable and unnecessary. So rather than fleece their customers, they've simply stopped selling them. There are plenty of good, sensibly priced alternatives available.

Personally, I've set myself a maximum price now on what I'll pay for a 30ml bottle of pure concentrate, even taking into account time, talent and development costs. With all the great recipes to be found on the net and the more reasonably priced ranges of one shots available - I refuse to pay some of the more OTT prices being asked.

But then I can live my life quite happily and not feel deprived without a Chanel handbag and other ' designer ' consumables.

Horses for courses and all that. 

[dalealan]

Supply and demand gone mad. Then again I've been getting the hackshots lately from Driphacks and that's not bothering me so much. Enough to make 250ml each and they're round about the 6 to 8 quid mark. Not the cheapest in relation to the concentrates cost if you mixed them yourself if you had the recipes but I remember paying some daft prices for 10 to 30ml of premium brand stuff so I'm not that bothered by it. As above its a buyers market and if people stop buying the over expensive stuff then I won't shed a tear for the sellers.

[striker42]

The TPD, much as we dislike it and disagree with it, has for some vendors been used as a way of trying to extort money from the customer. Having stocked up with nic pre TPD, things haven't changed much for me. Like decoy and dalealan, for over a year now I've been using Drip Hacks. OK, some will say it's not the cheapest and I'll be the first to agree. But, I can knock up 500ml of my favourite juice for around £18 and quite happy to pay that for something I enjoy. As djs has stated, you either play the game or you don't and when it comes to so called "premium" e liquid, I'm out. I wouldn't term myself as miserable or tight, even for a Scotsman, but I sure ain't going to be ripped off either. Again, every individuals opinion of what is expensive will be different. When I was smoking, I was spending around £10 a day on cigarettes which almost led to me being in a 6ft plot wearing a wooden jacket with a nice piece of marble above my head, now my juice consumption is around £20 a month, no plot, wooden jacket or headstone required. You can't put a price on that.

[yourgurnard]

1st time I've heard of this 'bottle shot' thang (I'm pretty much removed from 'all the latest' in vaping....I get all the info. that I need from here!!!...)
I agree that it seems a rip, altho' I also have sympathy with all the small, indie retailers that are trying to survive post-TPD....

[beedee]

I agree, ghostrider1971 , similar to some of the badly made 3D printed squonkers out there, charging £60 for something that costs £3 to build.

On the other hand, in a small specialist market you can't rely on selling vast quantities with small profit margins to make it worth your while, and if you do it requires a lot more outlay on equipment and staff and therefore more financial risk at startup (i.e. if you don't sell the vast quantities you planned for) - so this market will inevitably see some people putting very big margins on their products, that way they can survive with lower levels of production and fewer sales....

Some of them are just begging to be priced out of the market, though.

[domesticextremist]

What I see a lot with 3D printing, not just for mods, is that they use it in the wrong way

3D printing should be used for prototyping and refining a design.

Once you have it right, use it to make moulds then you can knock out copies by the hundred at much lower cost.

[buggritt]

Well, you could always try it for yourself. Anyone owning a business is piutting their money on the line. They are entitled to charge whatever they choose. Plenty of sleepless nights.
I bought a couple of bottle shots from Darkstar at very reasonable prices just for the concentrate. Bottle came in very handy. It's not like we haven't got the internet to shop around.