Theism, Agnosticism, Atheism.

[esmecullen]

I was brought up catholic, and was a believer until I was about 16 when I decided that it wasnt for me......... too rigid!

When I went to uni I "sampled" other religions including buddisim and wicca....... I still lean more to wicca.

I lived in LA for a while and even tried scientology

As I said I lean more towards wicca but, perhaps we are as one of my fave quotes from Babylon5 describes........

"We are the universe, trying to understand itself."
Delenn, Passing Through Gethsemane

[kurotoshiro]

Aug 22, 2012 20:31:53 GMT CAM-VIP said:

I believe that GOD is Energy - ie everything in the Universe. Just a different word for everything we know and those things we still search out.

I think I'd have to put you down as an atheist, strictly speaking. If the term 'god' is used with such a massive width of reference (literally everything), then it's not really functioning in the way it would have to in order to underpin the idea of 'theism' that I have in mind.

(Or, in plain English: you don't "believe in a god" in the traditional sense.)

Of course, I'm just talking semantics here.

[kurotoshiro]

Aug 22, 2012 20:48:01 GMT esmecullen said:

When I went to uni I "sampled" other religions including buddisim and wicca....... I still lean more to wicca.

I don't know much about wicca, but in my teens I was briefly interested in the Golden Dawn system of magic (I can't remember if it has a specific name). I never really believed in its validity, though (although I was tempted to think it might be psychologically beneficial to someone who did).

Aug 22, 2012 20:48:01 GMT esmecullen said:

I lived in LA for a while and even tried scientology

Woah! Hardcore.

Aug 22, 2012 20:48:01 GMT esmecullen said:

"We are the universe, trying to understand itself."

I'm sure I've heard this before (but presumably not from Babylon 5 as I don't watch it).

Even as an atheist I do quite like this. The only thing I'd change is the emphasis on the universe itself having understanding. I'm kind of forced to interpret that as a highly metaphorical way of speaking, because I can't make any sense of it being true in a literal way.

On a more literal level, though, I do think it would be a good way of expressing the nature of consciousness (ie, what it is to have a mind and to be conscious) to say that we are each like individual universes trying to understand ourselves.

[Phoenix .]

Aug 22, 2012 18:20:50 GMT kurotoshiro said:

Aug 22, 2012 18:18:51 GMT Phoenix . said:

Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the essence of things not seen.

Is that a quote from something, or are you freestylin' ?

HEBREWS 11.1

It was meant to be added at the end of the quote.

[Gordy]

i would love to have faith but im unable to blindly believe

religions are ok and i totally understand their purpose but i hate preaching

i would be a tree hugger but they dont hug back

[CAM-VIP]

Aug 22, 2012 22:27:49 GMT kurotoshiro said:

Aug 22, 2012 20:31:53 GMT CAM-VIP said:

I believe that GOD is Energy - ie everything in the Universe. Just a different word for everything we know and those things we still search out.

I think I'd have to put you down as an atheist, strictly speaking. If the term 'god' is used with such a massive width of reference (literally everything), then it's not really functioning in the way it would have to in order to underpin the idea of 'theism' that I have in mind.

(Or, in plain English: you don't "believe in a god" in the traditional sense.)

Of course, I'm just talking semantics here.

I'm not an atheist in the traditional sense. I have faith. I believe. I just believe that we can all shape our own destiny and that of others by the work we do.

Even the most insignificant conversation or interaction we have with another person has an impact on both parties. I strive to make each one as positive as I can (minimise the negatives) - this is not against what is written down in the scriptures but my interpretation of them.

It is difficult to put into words so I tend to just use the 'conservation of energy' to explain it.

In a closed system the total energy is constant or "energy cannot be created or destroyed". The closed system is the Universe. If at the beginning of the Universe there was GOD, it follows that everything currently in the Universe is GOD. The work we do can have a positive or negative effect on that system.

Perhaps theism is based upon GOD being external to our closed system. If so, then I am an atheist.

[richdude]

Aug 22, 2012 16:35:35 GMT kurotoshiro said:

Aug 22, 2012 14:48:20 GMT richdude said:

Lets assume that by reaching the true medititave state/trance you can attain a connection and communication with "god". Whilst being in this meditive state your energy frequency has changed to match that of "god" (the higher frequencies of energy), so does this not mean that, at that moment, you would be a higher frequency being, connected to (so part of) "god/the divine (etc)"

I'd still describe this as a type of theism. It's just that you've got unanswered metaphysical questions attached to it.

I use the word "metaphysical" because they're questions about the nature of specific types of thing or types of being, as well as the nature of the possible relationships between those things/beings - and that's what metaphysics is generally concerned with.

On reflection, though, I'm still having doubts about the question from earlier: Are these higher beings describable as "gods" or does the term "god" not really play a useful role in your world-view?

It's a tricky one, because the type of beings you're talking about are not the same as what you'd expect from the traditional Western religious notions of "god". And it's not exactly easy to come up with nice definition along the lines of

"A being counts as a "god" if and only if it has the following set of characteristics ... X, Y and Z".

I mean, what characteristics count? Omnipotence? Possibly, possibly not. Omnisceince? Again, maybe, maybe not. Benevolence? I don't see why that has to be necessary (the idea of a nasty hateful god doesn't sound like a contradiction in terms). Supernatural powers of some kind? Maybe, but what powers exactly? It's not as if there's an obvious list available! And what about the creation of the universe? Does a being count as a god only if it's responsible for creation? Or can you have gods that exist in a world they didn't actually create?

So, all in all, given the lack of a clear definition of "god", I think there's scope for you to say in all honesty 'I do believe in these types of higher being, but I don't know whether they count as "gods" - therefore, I have to be an agnostic, because I can't say for certain whether or not I believe there are such things as gods.'

Aug 22, 2012 15:02:35 GMT Fog On The Tyne Ltd said:

Kurotoshiro, you take analytical thinking to a new level!

Cheers, I'll take that as a compliment! (I studied philosophy for a long time, so I've had a lot of practise in analysing these types of issue.)

Yes I have no real use of the term God in my way of thinking, but agree 100% with what VIP said "God is energy and is everything" so in essence its not really god in the western sense, more like the god particle. A present energy that hold all other energy together?

You are right in saying about methphysics, that is one of my main areas of study and a lot of my beliefs and thought patterns have came from this, plus the study of Reiki and more recently shamanism. Thats why ive been trying to link the higher powers im speaking of to be compairable to what you call a god. Names are just names at the end of the day, God, Buddha, Allah, Shiva, Mother Earth, Father sky etc.... They could all be pointing at exactly the same thing but all worded differently to be acceptable to the different mindset of people. And noone is ever going to know if this is so or not, its just not possible to find out.

I am also not a person of blind faith, If you would of asked me when I was 15 if I believed in methaphysics, sprits etc I would of laughed at you! But when I was 16 I got glandular fever, I was seriously ill with it. In bed for 6-8months (of which I rememeber getting it and the end!). Mum told me that a couple of times the doctors thought I was going to die, and that at least once I almost did! Towards the end of the illness I had an "expericance" which tied in perfectly with the last time I almost died. Now im not going to go into detials of what happened but I met two beings that were not of this world/plain. Now I know this could of been illness related and might not of been real, but it changed a lot within me and was prob one of the biggest experiances in my life. It was at that point I knew there was more out there! And still to this day I can be sceptical(sp?) about some things, even when I have witnessed them first hand!


So

I must be atheist if you want to look from a western/christian point of view, but then in the olden days I would of been burnt for having my beliefs!! LOL!

But yes, after your amazing analaysis of my some what abnormal thought patters, I will happliy say I am Agnostic!



Great idea for a topic BTW!

[Annie]

Richdude, I have been sat here trying to put down in words my beliefs in a way not to be misinterpreted, I find it difficult to express myself in writing, I'm more of a face to face talker.
I had written something then changed my mind, only to find when I refreshed the page that you'd explained my thoughts on God for me, in a way I could never have put so well.

I was raised C of E, this being my mothers choice. Then at the age of twenty after being very uncomfortable with my religious path for some years, I began to lean towards a more Pagan/Wiccan way of life. One that I know the ancestors on my fathers side had followed many moons ago around the Pendle Hill area of Lancashire.

I am totally content in my own beliefs nowadays and respect everyone's right to their own.

[booblay]

I had a similar thing, Ellen. Brought up a Jehovah's Witness til the age of 11, believed it all, then got to fifteen, struggled with the old sexuality, and sort of went agnostic, as I do believe it's the more sensible choice.

But I'm leaning more toward atheism these days. Anyone here read the bible? It's shocking. I was talking about this to my mum just yesterday. God, especially in the Old Testament, comes across as petty, spiteful, childish, over-emotional and massively egotistical. He's awful. And there I was, at the age of 12, thinking that I loved him. Though I never did.

Two days ago I was at work and it was quiet so me and a workmate were watching TV. Embarrassing Bodies was on. A transexual was going in for penis removal. My workmate, an Indian Catholic, said, 'I find this crazy and disgusting,' and I looked at her and said, 'I think religion is crazy and disgusting - I guess we have different opinions.' And because she's one of the smarter ones there, she just smiled and shut up.

If I were going to bother with religion (which I won't), I'd try Buddhism or Quakerism. Quakers are lovely and chilled out and open-minded. My karate teacher is a christian and a lesbian, and her church is really cool. So sometimes it's just about finding the right church. But cool church or not, there is still the ultra-nasty Bible to contend with (Though Jesus is kinda nice).

I've been reading Nietzche lately. Boy, that fella's got some interesting ideas about God!

[richdude]

Annie I am the same, in person it is so much easier to talk about these things! Writing it al down has been quite hard for me!

Yes I have read the bible! not all of it but enough!

One question I have always had that no one has been able to answer... In the adam and eve story (cant remember exactly how its wrote), Adam and eve were the first people on earth. When they were evicted from the garden of eden, God marked them so they wouldnt be reckognised by the others (or something along thoese lines) Soooooooo, who were the others?

But yeah I agree , god wasnt made to sound good in the bible. Especially that story where he destroyed some blokes life to prove to the devil that he would still worship him!

I had a quick google of that guy, I will read some more about him later as it does seem pretty interesting!

[kurotoshiro]

Aug 23, 2012 6:47:46 GMT CAM-VIP said:

I'm not an atheist in the traditional sense. I have faith. I believe. I just believe that we can all shape our own destiny and that of others by the work we do.

Even the most insignificant conversation or interaction we have with another person has an impact on both parties. I strive to make each one as positive as I can (minimise the negatives) - this is not against what is written down in the scriptures but my interpretation of them.

To me, these just sound like ideas about human beings and human potential. They don't strike me as particularly 'religious'. (They sound like the kind of ethical values an atheist could easily hold.)

Aug 23, 2012 6:47:46 GMT CAM-VIP said:

Perhaps theism is based upon GOD being external to our closed system. If so, then I am an atheist.

I think the problem is that the concept of 'theism' I'm using relies on the idea of god as an entity with certain types of attribute, or an entity that performs certain types of action (as I've said earlier in this thread, it's hard to come up with a precise definition.) The god/energy thing you're describing seems difficult to pin down in these terms. That's the main reason why I'm doubting whether it falls under the definition of "god".

Perhaps, as with richdude's beliefs, you'd be best described as an Agnostic after all, since you obviously believe in something, it's just not possible to say for sure whether this something fits a definition of a "god".

[richdude]

Kuro, Im hoping this may help you see that the energy we speak of could be classed as an entity/god!

Everything is made of energy. We know this, science has proved this. Atoms are energy (but im sure you know that!) So we are made of energy, if there is a god, it would be made of energy as well. The energy i speak of I prefer to call universal energy, because it is omipresent. This energy could well be the energy that sparked the big bang and created the universe. It could be the energy that gives people talents, direction, beliefs, visions, random ideas etc etc etc!

But after all this I have found the answer to your question in the orignal post



I am ....

Answer D ... Panentheism

From WIKI!
Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine exists (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force ), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.[1]

[kurotoshiro]

Aug 23, 2012 11:35:43 GMT richdude said:

But after all this I have found the answer to your question in the orignal post



I am ....

Answer D ... Panentheism

From WIKI!
Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that the divine exists (be it a monotheistic God, polytheistic gods, or an eternal cosmic animating force ), interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it. Panentheism differentiates itself from pantheism, which holds that the divine is synonymous with the universe.[1]

Ah, nice find! But on my reading of these wiki entries, I think you're closer to Pantheism than Panentheism, aren't you?

[EDIT: I also noticed, interestingly, that on the page about Pantheism it says "Others hold that pantheism is a philosophical position closely related to Atheism." That's presumably for the reasons I was going on about earlier.]

[esmecullen]

Aug 23, 2012 6:47:46 GMT CAM-VIP said:

I'm not an atheist in the traditional sense. I have faith. I believe. I just believe that we can all shape our own destiny and that of others by the work we do.

Even the most insignificant conversation or interaction we have with another person has an impact on both parties. I strive to make each one as positive as I can (minimise the negatives) -

It is difficult to put into words so I tend to just use the 'conservation of energy' to explain it.

In a closed system the total energy is constant or "energy cannot be created or destroyed". The closed system is the Universe. If at the beginning of the Universe there was GOD, it follows that everything currently in the Universe is GOD. The work we do can have a positive or negative effect on that system.

Perhaps theism is based upon GOD being external to our closed system. If so, then I am an atheist.

Interestingly that sounds very similar to what was said to me when I "flirted" with scientology. I'm not saying it is exactly the same............ only some of the concepts are quite similar

[kurotoshiro]

Aug 23, 2012 11:51:22 GMT esmecullen said:

Aug 23, 2012 6:47:46 GMT CAM-VIP said:

I'm not an atheist in the traditional sense. I have faith. I believe. I just believe that we can all shape our own destiny and that of others by the work we do.

Even the most insignificant conversation or interaction we have with another person has an impact on both parties. I strive to make each one as positive as I can (minimise the negatives) -

It is difficult to put into words so I tend to just use the 'conservation of energy' to explain it.

In a closed system the total energy is constant or "energy cannot be created or destroyed". The closed system is the Universe. If at the beginning of the Universe there was GOD, it follows that everything currently in the Universe is GOD. The work we do can have a positive or negative effect on that system.

Perhaps theism is based upon GOD being external to our closed system. If so, then I am an atheist.

Interestingly that sounds very similar to what was said to me when I "flirted" with scientology. I'm not saying it is exactly the same............ only some of the concepts are quite similar

I suspect that's because the parts you've emphasised in bold are very general principles about human conduct and would be consistent with a huge range of different moral / ethical theories. I mean, in essence, it's just saying: 'The stuff we do matters. Act positively.' That general idea is bound to be reflected in all kinds of different beliefs all over the planet.