More bureaucracy wanted

[giles]

I think we need more rules about how juices and flavours are sold, and better enforcement of those rules.

I think ECITA should help in this process – some sort of “kite mark” for approved suppliers.

I think that if we try to oppose all regulation we will lose, and the regulation we get will not be what we want.

So this thread is intended to start a conversation with the aim of getting a good set of rules.

I imagine there are a lot of other similar conversations going on, and I'd like to put in our two-pennyworth before the results of those conversations get put to the legislators.

Rules I'd like to see are about sales to minors (I have no idea about how to do that) and about lablelling

Things I think should be legibly on the label – or if the bottle is too small, attached to it somehow:

Nic content %
PG/VG %
Alcohol content %
Oil content %
Whether or not contains diacetyl
Whether or not contains acetoin

And the poison stuff – the rules are already there, but are widely flouted. I think we should start to pressurise suppliers.

[Clutter]

I believe ECITA already require their members to adhere to stringent labelling in compliance with EC regs which include not for sale to under 18, nic%, pg/vg%, toxicity warning, raised triangle, suppliers contact details & the label specific wording & size as per guidelines .

Good idea about alcohol labelling tho, I don't think this is currently a requirement. Perhaps 'contains nuts' should be a requirement too.

Do reputable suppliers still supply juices containing diacetyl? I think most no longer do. I was of the impression that the oil content should be 0% otherwise atties would be killed ???

Giles, have you considered joining ECITA & ECCA? I should think your interest would be warmly welcomed.

[ChillerVapes]

I would also like to see better safety caps, I want to see tamper proof seals on there too. Bottles of pop have had them forever so why not ejuice?

I know in most cases, we are buying direct from the manufacture but, here in bradford, I know of 2 normal shops which sell a limited amount of eliquid.

[kickit]

Dec 15, 2012 7:39:08 GMT ChillerVapes said:

I would also like to see better safety caps, I want to see tamper proof seals on there too. Bottles of pop have had them forever so why not ejuice?

Seals, yes. I'm not sure about the better caps. It can sometimes take me a good few minutes to get into most of my bottles (from different suppliers and sources) as it is. There would be nothing worse than a more complicated safety cap on a 10ml bottle of juice. Imagine as it spins off away from you, spilling what little there is in the bottle in the first place?

[ChillerVapes]

Sorry I had just woke up, yeah I meant seals.

[Clutter]

I struggle with most child-proof caps & don't have ready access to a small child who can crack em open for me, so I don't want em made more difficult

[giles]

Dec 15, 2012 9:55:35 GMT Clutter said:

I struggle with most child-proof caps & don't have ready access to a small child who can crack em open for me, so I don't want em made more difficult

[hifistud]

There is already a full set of rules and regulations in place, both legislatively and in terms of the ECITA guidelines. I'd suggest you go and read the ECITA site and see what they require of their members, and then check the poisons act with regard to nicotine to discover what is required by law.

In terms of what is coming from the MHRA and the EU, then yes, there's a fight coming - and if we lose, your desires will be nullified straight off the bat, as bottled juice will be gone from legal sale in the UK - any you are able to get will have to be imported.

Dec 15, 2012 2:34:51 GMT giles said:

I think we need more rules about how juices and flavours are sold, and better enforcement of those rules.

I think ECITA should help in this process – some sort of “kite mark” for approved suppliers.

I think that if we try to oppose all regulation we will lose, and the regulation we get will not be what we want.

So this thread is intended to start a conversation with the aim of getting a good set of rules.

I imagine there are a lot of other similar conversations going on, and I'd like to put in our two-pennyworth before the results of those conversations get put to the legislators.

Rules I'd like to see are about sales to minors (I have no idea about how to do that) and about lablelling

Things I think should be legibly on the label – or if the bottle is too small, attached to it somehow:

Nic content %
PG/VG %
Alcohol content %
Oil content %
Whether or not contains diacetyl
Whether or not contains acetoin

And the poison stuff – the rules are already there, but are widely flouted. I think we should start to pressurise suppliers.

[vapee]

I think dekang has quite a detailed list of their ingredients on the bottle, like instead of just having flavourings theyll have stuff like u see on the back of a pack of sweets

[djs]

Dec 15, 2012 2:34:51 GMT giles said:

Nic content %
PG/VG %
Alcohol content %
Oil content %
Whether or not contains diacetyl
Whether or not contains acetoin

All those things, of course.

I tell you what else. There are vendors selling e-liquid that don't actually state the size/ml in the bottles.

What sort of idiots are they?....am I going to buy a juice on the "guess" it must be a certain size?

I shan't be using those sellers.

[lobeydosser]

Cigarettes have been on sale for almost 150 years. They still do not list their contents on the packet. Indeed, if they did, they would need a packet the size of your average breakfast cereal box.

I agree that some of the contents of e-juices should be better labelled, but market forces will drive that forward because people will simply refuse to buy juice that is improperly labelled.

I would like to think that by this time next year we will still be discussing what is considered to be decent labelling, but I doubt it. I think that by then we will be having a hard job just trying to get the ingredients and be a lot less concerned as to their packaging.

[giles]

Dec 15, 2012 2:51:53 GMT Clutter said:

I believe ECITA already require their members to adhere to stringent labelling in compliance with EC regs which include not for sale to under 18, nic%, pg/vg%, toxicity warning, raised triangle, suppliers contact details & the label specific wording & size as per guidelines .

Good idea about alcohol labelling tho, I don't think this is currently a requirement. Perhaps 'contains nuts' should be a requirement too.

Do reputable suppliers still supply juices containing diacetyl? I think most no longer do. I was of the impression that the oil content should be 0% otherwise atties would be killed ???

Giles, have you considered joining ECITA & ECCA? I should think your interest would be warmly welcomed.

Clutter, I think you may be a bit optimistic about ECITA. They might be doing a great job with their members, but if they are I wish they were more transparent about it. You may be right about them requiring stringent labelling, but I can't see it anywhere on their site. My reading of it suggests that they actually don't require anything, but just inform members what the laws are and help them obey them.

The ISE (their list of "requirements") is summarized on page 11 of this document www.ecita.org.uk/ecita%20quarterly%20update.pdf . As far as I can see, it simply reflects existing laws about poison.

I see no reference to diacetyl anywhere on their site.

I have not seen any attempt by them to inform the market which suppliers comply and which don't. The thing about financial audits is that they are public documents. If ECITA have done any audits and made them public, I'd appreciate knowing where to find them.

Their description of the service they offer members (testing liquids and bottle safety) has no reference to any constituent which might be safe to eat but dangerous to vape, and appears to be intended simply to ensure members are operating within the existing laws about poison.

I am not trying to knock ECITA. I am just not sure that their aims are necessarily the same as ours. They are a trade association, not a consumer association (so I couldn't join them), and I'm not at all sure that at the moment they even represent the traders we buy from. Only three of those on our vendors list are listed as ECITA members. Most of the members they list are not people we would buy from.

So, I think we need to find ways to make our opinions felt rather than relying in ECITA

ECCA, on the other hand, I am very happy to knock. I am a member, as it happens, but as far as I can see they are pretty useless.

I don't know whether most reputable suppliers still supply juices containing diacetyl. I've asked suppliers of flavours (there's a thread at allaboute-cigarettes.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=mixology&thread=15266&page=1#299985) but not suppliers of juices. If ECCA were worth their salt I wouldn't have had to start that thread - they'd have done it already.

Part of the problem is how do you know who is "reputable"? Hence my comment about approved suppliers.

[magicma]

Re opening the bottles. I have to use Nutcrackers (gently) to open them.
My old hands are just not able to get a grip.

It's not just a 'vaping' problem, I use them for loads of other things too. They are a good old metal pair (nutcrackers) not the flimsy plastic ones.

Just thought I'd let you know!! MMa

[hifistud]

Giles, the whole Diacetyl thing was done to death nearly two years ago when the report about Popcorn lung was published. The "old stager" vendors who were around then all took the necessary steps to remove any and all Diacetyl from their juices. That it's reared its ugly head again is, I think, a response to new vendors who perhaps have not done their homework selling "made to order" type juices.

Seriously, I have seen (not saying where) a new forum member asking about various bits to do with juice, admitting they've only been using e-cigs for a fortnight, and then, three weeks later, setting up shop as a boutique juice vendor. There's no way they can possibly have done all the groundwork needed to gain the knowledge and experience needed to set up a truly professional operation with guaranteed quality. Even worse, will they even have heard of Diacetyl?

[lobeydosser]

Mixing your own e-juice is just too dammed easy. I started a couple of months ago and did so, at first for a hobby, but more seriously after reading a topic on here by a lady who intended to start mixing to sell her e-juice.
She had only just started vaping and was already talking about selling juice that she had no experience of even using, let alone inflicting on the wider vaping community.
That's when I realised that I either had to trust the vendors to sell me juice that safe to use, or that I make my own.

I am now very wary about who I buy e-juice from and I only buy it directly from respected vendors.