I wrote to ASH.

[djs]

So, as I was busy sending my letter to my MP and Euro MPs, I thought it might be worth sending a copy to ASH, along with a "personal" introduction explaining why I am campaigning to stop/alter the EU proposals.

And what sort of reply did I get?

I was pointed to a link on their website outlining their position on e-cigs.

That was it. So I read it.

- - - -

Here is a little taster of it

ASH’s position on e-cigarettes
ASH supports a harm reduction approach to tobacco, that is, we recognise that whilst efforts to help people stop smoking should remain a priority, many people either do not wish to stop smoking or find it very hard to do so. For this group, we believe that products should be made available that deliver nicotine in a safe way, without the harmful components found in tobacco. Most of the diseases associated with smoking are caused by inhaling smoke which contains thousands of toxic
chemicals. By contrast, nicotine is relatively safe.
Therefore, e-cigarettes, which deliver nicotine without the harmful toxins found in tobacco smoke, are likely to be a safer alternative to smoking. In addition, e-cigarettes reduce secondhand smoke exposure since they do not produce smoke. It should be noted, however, that ASH does not provide commercial product endorsement.

GREAT - how good is that!

Now, the bad news.

Futhermore, there are disadvantages with e-cigarettes:
1. Most deliver a low dose of nicotine which may not give a typical smoker a sufficient ‘hit’ to satisfy cravings, discouraging smokers from continuing to use them.
2. Because the products are unregulated there are some concerns about their safety since few manufacturers disclose the ingredients of their products.
3. So far, there have been no clinical trials to prove that they can help people to stop smoking. In the absence of such evidence, ASH therefore recommends that people who want to quit smoking should use nicotine replacement therapy or other proven pharmacological aids such as
Champix (varenicline) or Zyban (bupropion).

OK, so quitting altogether with pharmaceutical help might be a very idealistic and utopian aim, but what planet are they on?

Low dosage? We're not all on supermarket e-cigs.
Safety (ingredients)? Have ASH been using data from a few years ago?
and then....the one comment I hate more than any other, the comment that drives me totally mad.

By writing these sorts of things, it's like people are denying the possibility that someone might actually use an e-cig as an alternative to smoking.

No clinical trials? Well, maybe not. Who needs clinical trials - OPEN YOUR EYES AND SEE.



LOOK ASH. We are handing this to you on a silver plate, adorned with sprinkles of moon dust and served by an Alien from Mars called "Timothy".

You want to " eliminate the harm caused by tobacco"?

SUPPORT E-CIGS.

[Karma]

Good for you!

are you going to write back addressing their negative points? Certainly if the EU have their way then e-cigs will not be a viable alternative at less than 4mg !

[djs]

Jan 8, 2013 17:33:09 GMT Karma said:

Good for you!

are you going to write back addressing their negative points? Certainly if the EU have their way then e-cigs will not be a viable alternative at less than 4mg !

I am going to do more than write back. I have "prepared", in my drafts (at googlemail) an exact HTML copy of this post.

If I send it, it will be laying down the gauntlet and categorically challenging them.

[pjim]

Its good that they support harm reduction. I think they do have a point about lack of disclosure over ingredients. We still don't know fully about the safety of vaping really. I think its much safer than smoking and there is some evidence to support this however its early days.

Point one doesn't stand up to well. I think the delivery of nicotine by effective devices is sufficient.

As for clinical trials/evidence based smoking cessation well... The current treatments whilst having an evidence base are not really very effective. There are also some problems with much of the data on NRT (potential problems with a lack of correct blinding)

But "who needs clinical trials" We do for sure! Especially if e-cigs are really going to be promoted as a method for smoking cessation. You may say look at all the people who quit with e-cigs. I could show plenty of people who tried them and didn't stop smoking and didn't continue using them. Without proper evidence its all speculation. The only data I've been shown looked really promising, not surprising to me, but we still need it.

If you get good research and evidence it makes the case for vaping much stronger.

Good working in contacting ASH though. Potentially they could be an ally.

[djs]

Great comment pjim.

Yes, we do need clinical trials, but we don't need clinical trials to assess whether people have quit tobacco.

If an organisation said they were "unprepared at this time to support the use of e-cigs" I could understand it.
It's the fact that the EU anti-e-cig lobby WILL use this argument to "seal the deal".

[kibbster]

Why does everyone assume I use e-cigs to give up smoking?
If I wanted to quit I'd have quit, I switched to vaping so I could carry on and not harm myself and save money.

Not just the ASH lot who seem to have trouble believing anyone could like smoking, a lot of my friends and family too (first question always, so when are you going to stop vaping?)

[comfrey]

Well don DJ and I'm glad you are writing back to address their negative comments. As has been said they are obviously using only the data on the crappy supermarket jobbies.

Karma is right, if they only allow nicotine at 4mg then Ash should, all things being equal, support us.

[comfrey]

Oh and Kibbster, some of mine say that too as if I'm doing something dreadful, just slightly less dreadful than smoking.

I enjoy it too and as of now, have absolutely no intention of stopping!

[Bluefish]

How can they say there is no evidence of e-cigs stopping people smoking, how about the millions of users using them instead of smoking and the prolific expansion of the e cig market, they are quite obviously in pharma's pocket.

[djs]

Jan 8, 2013 22:03:34 GMT Bluefish said:

How can they say there is no evidence of e-cigs stopping people smoking, how about the millions of users using them instead of smoking and the prolific expansion of the e cig market, they are quite obviously in pharma's pocket.

I know, I am beginning to wonder. Pharmaceutical firms sponsor the work of ASH to get people off fags and onto NRT. It would make sense.

[djs]

Anyway.

I replied to their email.

I read the document with some interest and have collated some thoughts as to what it covers.
Regrettably, the 3 main points/reasons that ASH take into consideration to decide on their position in regard to e-cigarettes are also the points that Tobacco and Pharmaceutical lobbies will use to make sure that Nicotine liquid is duly banned across the European Nation States.

Namely that
1. Most deliver a low dose of nicotine which may not give a typical smoker a sufficient ‘hit’ to satisfy
cravings, discouraging smokers from continuing to use them.
2. Because the products are unregulated there are some concerns about their safety since few
manufacturers disclose the ingredients of their products.
3. So far, there have been no clinical trials to prove that they can help people to stop
smoking. In the absence of such evidence, ASH therefore recommends that people who want to quit
smoking should use nicotine replacement therapy or other proven pharmacological aids such as
Champix (varenicline) or Zyban (bupropion).

My response.
1. Many in the vaping community do not commonly use the kind of devices your document refers to. Although it is true that "high street" electronic cigarettes may not deliver enough nicotine to be of genuine use, we are able to purchase and use devices that can successfully deliver Nicotine. If ASH don't know about these, then someone needs to get up to speed, fast.
2. Safety is no longer the issue it was. Most liquids can now be sourced in the UK now where they are manufactured with only four ingredients. The days of "anti-freeze" and "Diethylene Glycol" are long gone.
3. Although there have been no clinical trials, people are quitting tobacco in the thousands with readily available equipment and liquid, and YOU at ASH need to be aware. The Pharmaceutical lobby will use this "sound-bite" (that e-cigarettes are unproven) as their no.1 defence to have nicotine liquid banned and push their NRT products to the fore.
Giving up using NRT is a rightly worthy cause, which should be supported by everyone, but sadly, it is not that effective. As I stated in my original email, success rates under 10% are not encouraging.

I do not expect ASH to back any products or endorse the use of e-cigarettes. However, if your primary objective is to to eliminate the harm caused by tobacco, I think it is time for you to get out into the community (either literally or using the internet) and draw your conclusions from more research and testimony.

The EU will be banning liquid of any use unless there is enough pressure bought to bear. Tobacco and Pharmaceutical corporations are rubbing their hands in glee at the prospect of over 100,000 e-cig user being sent straight back to with tobacco or NRT. BUT, there is another way.

Please, please, pass this on to people in your organisation.

[Karma]

Jan 8, 2013 22:03:34 GMT Bluefish said:

How can they say there is no evidence of e-cigs stopping people smoking, how about the millions of users using them instead of smoking and the prolific expansion of the e cig market, they are quite obviously in pharma's pocket.

Anecdotal evidence is very hard to measure. It's easy to measure evidence of someone going to an NHS Stop Smoking Clinic, using NRT and being smoke free at 4 weeks

Many of us will have been counted in these success statistics then gone back to smoking again. No follow up to see if you are still stopped after 6 months

[ripple27]

Jan 8, 2013 22:13:21 GMT Karma said:

Jan 8, 2013 22:03:34 GMT Bluefish said:

How can they say there is no evidence of e-cigs stopping people smoking, how about the millions of users using them instead of smoking and the prolific expansion of the e cig market, they are quite obviously in pharma's pocket.

Anecdotal evidence is very hard to measure. It's easy to measure evidence of someone going to an NHS Stop Smoking Clinic, using NRT and being smoke free at 4 weeks

Many of us will have been counted in these success statistics then gone back to smoking again. No follow up to see if you are still stopped after 6 months

This is where i have to jump in as tomorrow i am seeing my nhs stop smoking group to set up a 6 month plan, i have tried everything they can offer to quit smoking and none of it worked and they freely admit they have run out of anything i can use even tablets just made me ill, i have copd so they have to be a bit careful what they give me so i had been using e cigs and smoking for a while and decided one day l had 2 cigs left and felt to ill to get dressed and drive to shop so thought ok il use e cig till the craving gets to bad and il have to go to shop well aprox 6 weeks later and im still waiting for the cravings as i have had none at all and so i have passed my 4 week period and i am seeing them tomorrow to see if they will monitor me for the next 6 months and record the findings to my levels and then im going to ask my doctor to do the same with the Lung Function Test l usually have once a year if they will do it on a monthly basis and record it and then l can use that as evidence to support the e cig and i will record what strengh and how much l vape during that period, surely it all helps us?

[thundercat]

aids such as
Champix (varenicline)

Fecking hell I was almost into suicidal stages using this , luckily my mind had the sense to alert me to the problem and coerced it to stop.

F'gods sake WAKE UP the world!! Money isn't the be all and end all.

Andy

[glynwhite]

Well done