*Long* Dizzi's Shopping Musings

[dave]

Very interesting OP dizzie resulting in a much better discussion of this than usually occurs on this topic area.

I would just add a couple of points. I've got a few people started on vaping and I would always point them to a UK vendor that I know and trust. If there is any problem it will be dealt with immediately, they are very helpful and the stuff they sell is usually reliable anyway as they know from experience which of the multitude of Chinese factories produce the most reliable products. Many people are happy with a typical starter kit and only occasionally are going to want to get another battery or a few clearos. Similarly they try a few juices, find one or two they like and stick to them. They really don't want to know any more than that (I've tried ) let alone check out lots of vendors and certainly not start buying stuff direct from China! They are probably spending a lot less on vaping than many of the people on here and certainly a lot less than they spent on smoking! I think good vendors will survive possible future competition from supermarkets just as other specialist shops are still thriving.

For many of us vaping becomes a hobby. It's fun buying stuff from China and other parts of the world, checking out good deals etc. It's also fun finding things we like made by retired clockmakers in Cornwall, obsessive Greeks, Poles who develop things in their kitchens etc. etc. I'm sure most of us still buy stuff (especially juice) in the UK though and I doubt we have much of an impact on the established UK vendors. I think all these markets for e-cig stuff can co-exist quite happily - I hope so anyway!

[dizzi]

Jan 29, 2013 23:26:39 GMT robby said:

If a vender wants to have a markup of 250% that is absolutely fine, but it doesnt mean I have to buy there or in this country if it comes down to it.

I agree with you and Dave about the hobby aspect of this Robby, and it's something that I feel too - that getting parcels from other parts of the world just adds to the fun. However, I wanted to point out that everything you buy in the UK will be priced at 250% (or more) than the vendor paid for that item. Everything (apart from some sales items and loss leaders). They couldn't stay in business otherwise.

[giles]

Seems to me that if the supermarkets don't stock the high-end stuff then Jason & co will continue to do fine. They'll sell fewer cig-alikes, but the market will be much bigger, so more novas etc.

And as long as the technology is still developing the supermarkets won't be selling the high end stuff. Somewhere down the line there'll be a 1500mah vw cig-alike for £15 or so but I'd have thought that was 10 of 15 years away.

Everybody in business is (or should be) specialising in something which they do better than other people. Jason and co understand the vaping market and technology. Frogster & Grizwald are the master brewers of the new age. I don't know what business your friend thinks she's in dizzy, but I think that what a lot of the successful shops like that do is sell gifts. You go there to buy something for someone else, not you; it should be superficially attractive, a bit unusual, and look expensive. And if the shop owner is good at what she does you'll make an impulse buy as well. If she is good at finding things like that to sell, then she can charge a high mark-up. I don't thing vaping is at all like that. One day hand-made drip tips might sit beside the hand-made jewellery, but that is probably about as deep into vaping as it should get.

250% is high. Unless things have changed since I was in business (it's been a few years) 50% is more normal. Supermarkets run on about 7%. When you pay 250% you are paying her to find something special for you. If you have a friend with a newsagents shop or an independent chemist who actually knows and cares about vaping then they would probably do better.

[robby]

There are plenty of customers to go round, it`s a growing market as more and more people switch to vaping when they get properly informed. The ever increasing number of UK venders out there proves that. The vast majority of UK vapers wouldn`t even consider buying from abroad because of the risks with communication, shipping, customs etc, and the worry of simply "getting ripped off". It hasn`t happened to me yet, communication, patience and understanding normally get things sorted okay

[Deleted]

Dizzi, i'ts already happening. look at the market, every day there is a new ecig vendor appearing online, mostly because they see the potential gains from a somewhat new market. Look at the forums or on FaceBook, ecig vendors are forever offering bigger and bigger discounts to get you to go their sites, they are feeling the squeeze already and we like vapid mice go to whoever offers the biggest piece of cheese.
I remember 3 or 4 years ago when I first heard about ecigs, the vendor with the biggest online profile to my mind was TW; i'd be prepared to bet that their income isn't what it was a while ago.
Tbh, this is excellent from the consumers pocket but we are already seeing the rot set in.

[jakethevape]

Jan 29, 2013 19:36:05 GMT scaffman69 said:

Jan 29, 2013 19:28:56 GMT jakethevape said:

And this is the reason I am not going to ever buy from China and wait for some "slow boat" etc. Not impatiance on waiting nor bargin hunting.

Yes its a recession, yes money is hard to come by at the moment. But I would still feel happier knowing I gave a UK vendor my business (even tho most of their products are from china) because that is just me. Support our country and give back something to another (IE: Keep people in employment, profit is there to make a living and sorry this country is expensive)

Well they`ll be getting most their stuff you be buying from china, why not cut them out and save plenty, its a no brainer to me, i aint got lots of cash to throw around to keep a lame buisness afloat, yes your right theirs a ressesion on.

Sorry but that "Lame business" is what gives us our ecig supplies when we need them.

NOTE: Don’t keep on thinking trading with china will always be so smooth.....

Let me ask you a question.

How much do you think one person needs to earn to have a semi decent life?.. Well I tell you 17,000 PA (what my terrible salary is) does not cut the mustard, supporting two children (wife works also full time) paying bills, running 2 cars (don’t give me the public transport rubbish as it is NOT possible in our situations due to location and work) etc and we are barely left with a decent sum (combined salary’s, and we live South UK so more expensive for some stupid reason) to put away for deposit on mortgage and be able to have something for the rest of "life’s pleasures", holidays etc etc. Basically we skimp were we can. Putting that aside as I am sure you have no care for my financial situation....

Now to make £17,000 a year from a business to take home plus cover other staff, overheads etc means there is NO OPTION to buy from the likes of china and then sell here for 200% mark up.

So basically what you are saying is stuff the UK vendors, I will go to china direct.

Fine by me, again not my concern HOWEVER if we only end up with a couple of vendors to buy from people will then start moaning that there is no competition/variety. It is the same old story of people winging about lining the pockets of the filthy rich (tesco/asda etc) and then moan that there local shop (the real community spirit) have all gone...

You don’t realise what you have lost until it is gone. And if dealing with China, waiting silly times and unreliable services at the best of times (let’s face it little $10/$100 china orders are nothing to them in the grand scale of things so why would you expect the service to be as good as a UK vendor that NEEDS people to return to them?).

You want someone to blame?. Turn to the government. TAX TAX and did I just say TAX. Oh and the bankers for extortionate rates of lending for premise’s (thus forcing overheads up).

So the no brainer is people not sorting out their own problems at home (England) and letting it get to the rubbish situation it is currently in. Slate me down all you like but it is black and white with Facts.

PS: Don’t take this the wrong way, not a personal dig at you or anything but more of a strong topic for me as I am sick and tired of watching uk businesses go bust due to constant undercutting...... Again blame the dam government and the people who allow them to stay in power. Together people are united and together people can do something about it (it being the dam redtape and tax). On your own your just another rambling fool which is unfortunately what I feel like. Unfortunately because I can’t keep my tongue over things like this....

[scaffman69]

Jan 29, 2013 19:16:12 GMT Gordy said:

really good post Dizzi

the whole reason certain vendors can sell cheaper is because they buy bigger and sell more ...its the reason supermarkets killed local trade ...but its us that allowed this to happen by buying from them ...we have ourselves to blame and in the end we will say the same thing about UK ecig vendors ...it'll be a shame but we can stop it happening

buy more from the UK vendor and then they will be able to buy more and sell cheaper ...simple as

again great post and a great debate

Why is a shame about big supermarkets killing local trade ? id say its a real money saver for the consumer, its just captitolism isn`t it, tuff iff you cant compete. I dont go for what about their jobs etc story cus they will all be working down Tesco or Asda, i cant see a problem with the consumer getting a bargain even iff it mean joe bloggs going bust. Its just how it goes and the way of the modern world iff some people still choose to think like dinasours thats their problem and choice.

[scaffman69]

Jan 29, 2013 21:12:05 GMT madwill said:

Good points but if e-cigs went mainstream and there were more people vaping than smoking it wouldn't be the supermarkets you would have to worry about,it would be the government they would tax the sh*t out of them to recover their lost revenue from tobacco sales,

Definateley and sadly i think this is gonna be inevitable in the end whether they are in supermakets or not.

[robby]

I really dont think the same arguement applies to the e cig business, I have no figures but I would be really surprised if people buying e cig supplies from China direct comes to anything like 2 or 3% of the market. Please correct me if I am wrong and anyone has any reliable figures about it. There are lots of new ecig venders popping up all the time because there is money in it and will continue to be money in it for years to come as more people are educated about the benefits of vaping as opposed to smoking. The customer base is going to increase every year. Plenty of customers to go round and there will be hundreds of ecig venders starting up every year worldwide, many more start ups than venders failing. It`s a world market and it`s about competition. Wallets and purses are tight all over the world and people simply HAVE TO look for value for their money.

[scaffman69]

Jan 30, 2013 12:51:31 GMT jakethevape said:

Jan 29, 2013 19:36:05 GMT scaffman69 said:

Well they`ll be getting most their stuff you be buying from china, why not cut them out and save plenty, its a no brainer to me, i aint got lots of cash to throw around to keep a lame buisness afloat, yes your right theirs a ressesion on.

Sorry but that "Lame business" is what gives us our ecig supplies when we need them.

NOTE: Don’t keep on thinking trading with china will always be so smooth.....

Let me ask you a question.

How much do you think one person needs to earn to have a semi decent life?.. Well I tell you 17,000 PA (what my terrible salary is) does not cut the mustard, supporting two children (wife works also full time) paying bills, running 2 cars (don’t give me the public transport rubbish as it is NOT possible in our situations due to location and work) etc and we are barely left with a decent sum (combined salary’s, and we live South UK so more expensive for some stupid reason) to put away for deposit on mortgage and be able to have something for the rest of "life’s pleasures", holidays etc etc. Basically we skimp were we can. Putting that aside as I am sure you have no care for my financial situation....

Now to make £17,000 a year from a business to take home plus cover other staff, overheads etc means there is NO OPTION to buy from the likes of china and then sell here for 200% mark up.

So basically what you are saying is stuff the UK vendors, I will go to china direct.

Fine by me, again not my concern HOWEVER if we only end up with a couple of vendors to buy from people will then start moaning that there is no competition/variety. It is the same old story of people winging about lining the pockets of the filthy rich (tesco/asda etc) and then moan that there local shop (the real community spirit) have all gone...

You don’t realise what you have lost until it is gone. And if dealing with China, waiting silly times and unreliable services at the best of times (let’s face it little $10/$100 china orders are nothing to them in the grand scale of things so why would you expect the service to be as good as a UK vendor that NEEDS people to return to them?).

You want someone to blame?. Turn to the government. TAX TAX and did I just say TAX. Oh and the bankers for extortionate rates of lending for premise’s (thus forcing overheads up).

So the no brainer is people not sorting out their own problems at home (England) and letting it get to the rubbish situation it is currently in. Slate me down all you like but it is black and white with Facts.

PS: Don’t take this the wrong way, not a personal dig at you or anything but more of a strong topic for me as I am sick and tired of watching uk businesses go bust due to constant undercutting...... Again blame the dam government and the people who allow them to stay in power. Together people are united and together people can do something about it (it being the dam redtape and tax). On your own your just another rambling fool which is unfortunately what I feel like. Unfortunately because I can’t keep my tongue over things like this....

So you skrimpt and scrape for your family and yourself but would rather pay more to keep a UK buisness afloat
But back on subject yes i say leave them by the roadside and whats left will be the decent reputable companies and believe me their will and is plenty of those around, that do realistic markups and dont just up the price cus they see its their biggest seller when they woke up that day, seems to me thats what lots do these days.
I dont take much things personal m8, its a discusion on a forum at the end of the day.

[dizzi]

Jan 30, 2013 10:58:44 GMT giles said:

I don't know what business your friend thinks she's in dizzy, but I think that what a lot of the successful shops like that do is sell gifts. You go there to buy something for someone else, not you; it should be superficially attractive, a bit unusual, and look expensive. And if the shop owner is good at what she does you'll make an impulse buy as well. If she is good at finding things like that to sell, then she can charge a high mark-up.

Good point Giles, and one I hadn't considered. However, her mark-up doesn't lead to riches, very far from it.

Jan 30, 2013 10:58:44 GMT giles said:

250% is high. Unless things have changed since I was in business (it's been a few years) 50% is more normal. Supermarkets run on about 7%. When you pay 250% you are paying her to find something special for you.

Hmmm, I shall bow to your superior knowledge here Giles, as mine is somewhat limited. I was thinking more of cost vs price than cost-to-final-vendor vs price by the time we got from my friend's shop to the later posts, and conflated the two. We know that every link in the supply chain adds their own markup (another reason supermarkets can afford to undercut the little guy, fewer links). Interesting though that the reason this whole thread came about was due to an argument over a dripping atty that costs £3.50 shipped from China, or £11.00 (or more) from the UK for the exact same thing. If the UK vendors are buying from the factory (hence at a cheaper price than the Chinese vendor is selling for), their markup is higher even than 250%. A complaint was made about a UK vendor selling a Vamo for £50, while the same item from a Chinese vendor was £20 shipped - exactly 250% between the two.

[dizzi]

Jan 30, 2013 12:25:45 GMT @mp2012 said:

I remember 3 or 4 years ago when I first heard about ecigs, the vendor with the biggest online profile to my mind was TW; i'd be prepared to bet that their income isn't what it was a while ago.
Tbh, this is excellent from the consumers pocket but we are already seeing the rot set in.

TW have themselves to blame for this (see elsewhere on the web, I don't want to rake the details up again.) They were perfectly placed to be THE online supermarket for all things ecig and then made some ummmm... questionable business decisions. I don't think the new vendors popping up helped, but I do think TW could be doing a lot better than perhaps they are now. They still seem to have quite a lot of customers though, so they're probably not doing too badly!

[jakethevape]

Jan 30, 2013 14:05:59 GMT scaffman69 said:

Jan 30, 2013 12:51:31 GMT jakethevape said:

So you skrimpt and scrape for your family and yourself but would rather pay more to keep a UK buisness afloat

Off topic I know, but I have other ways and means of topping that up (I buy and sell electronics, phones laptops etc) but looking at my income without that then yes it is scraping. The amount I am saving from smoking the dreaded stinkies and others is amazing so instant gain, and even more now my head is clearer to put back into my little buying / selling things. So fingers crossed it will get better, still early days.

Ontopic, I understand what you are saying 100%, it all boils down to money. It is frustrating that the UK cant compete with oversea prices.

This is why I hate money with a passion

[VE Jason]

Interesting thread Dizzi

A couple of other things to bear in mind when comparing UK vendors to vendors like Vaporbreak, HC etc is that China to China prices are substantially cheaper than China to UK prices so they will get the original Vamo around 40%-50% cheaper than the UK vendor would direct from the same manufacturer.

Our price on the SS Vamo, after discount is around £45. The VAT man takes 20% and after our overheads and insurances are paid the profit is under £10 and for that we stand the warranty.

Not as much of a gold mine as some might think

[djs]

Jan 30, 2013 15:25:19 GMT VE Jason said:

Our price on the SS Vamo, after discount is around £45. The VAT man takes 20% and after our overheads and insurances are paid the profit is under £10 and for that we stand the warranty.

Not as much of a gold mine as some might think

Yes, and if every Tom, Dick and Harry gets in on the act, things will become even tighter. That's why I never mess around over a few quid here and there (and go to a random online store), the service is what counts.