Long awaited MHRA announcement

[womble]

Jun 12, 2013 19:30:55 GMT Karma said:

Ecigwizard's response

www.ecigwizard.com/blog/response-to-mhras-statement-today?utm_source=Ecigwizard+Newsletter&utm_campaign=1033b7fbb1-MHRA6_12_2013&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_d5a6a33ffe-1033b7fbb1-41797381

A rather elongated, but very good response.

[womble]

Jun 12, 2013 20:10:27 GMT greendollar said:

' We are only interested in electronic cigarettes that contain nicotine ..... Electronic Nicotine Delivery System (ENDS) '

So vendors can carry on selling the hardware , empty cartomisers , atomisers , batteries and anything else associated with vaping aslong as the product doesn't contain nicotine .
So the legislation they want is really aimed at the crap off the shelf pre-filled rubbish that very few of us use then .

Plus our juices, which don't look like they will be allowed. Over the next few months we will find out alot more and I wouldn't be surprised if MHRA changed their views at some point.

[Karma]

Really, the MHRA should be making Tobacco a medicinal product if Nicotine Liquid is going to be a medicinal product ???

[DiscoDes]

Dave Dorn now on Vapourtrails.tv has just said "IT IS EFFECTIVELY A BAN ON ECIGS".

[lemental]

Does anyone know on what grounds similar proposals were thrown out in court in both Germany and Holland?

[Karma]

Jun 12, 2013 20:29:50 GMT DiscoDes said:

Dave Dorn now on Vapourtrails.tv has just said "IT IS EFFECTIVELY A BAN ON ECIGS".

Totally ridiculous situation when tobacco ciggies are not only legal but an important revenue income for the government 

[Deleted]

If three countries have thrown it out, there's hope for us yet.

[charlie]

Lets find out about the successful challenges in The Netherlands and Germany.

1) this is a decision made in bad faith by an agency funded by big pharma. See MP Paul Flynn's blog paulflynnmp.typepad.com/my_weblog/2012/01/mhra-self-regulation-no-regulation.html

2) the decision goes beyond the powers of the MHRA, unless nicotine has been reclassified as a medicinal product (much as big pharma might wish this true, it's not), making it ultra vires and not enforceable


five minute legal brief:


If there are enough people that want to challenge this decision, it is possible, but it would need to be done quickly.


Where a government decision has been made and not yet implemented, judicial review can be considered. This is a ‘discretionary remedy’: permission is not automatic even if a government decision is obviously flawed. Permission comes from the High Court.



The process is two staged, first stage is obtaining permission. The second stage is the decision. Sometimes the two can be combined in one hearing for urgent cases only (unlikely in this case). There is an absolute three month time limit for cases to be brought and action must be taken ‘promptly’. High court refusal can be given on the basis of failure to act promptly even within the three month time limit.



This is a specialist case and likely to be expensive. Even if sucessful, the legal costs are likely to be high.



A good judicial review lawyer would find a specific decision to challenge within the time limit. There will have to be enabling legislation to follow today’s announcement by the MHRA and therefore several points at which a legal challenge might be made. But the longer this is left, the harder it becomes.



Government decisions can often be challenged on the basis of:



· failing to take something relevant into account



· taking something irrelevant into account



· authorities misunderstanding or overstepping their legal powers



· bad faith (misuse of legislation for inappropriate legislation etc)



· ‘Wednesbury unreasonableness’ (decisions unreasonable enough that no decision maker properly directing themselves about the law could have come to that decision, ie the decision is outside the possible boundaries of reasonable decision making)



The last two are hard to prove, but included in legal challenges where appropriate. The solicitor stage might be bypassed (in the interests of speed and cost), but you would have to be able to comply with the Direct Professional Access rules. A specialist barristers’ chambers would be able to advise.



To recap on the main three points: this would be a costly process, involve specialists and would need to be done quickly.

[a1laserboy]

I can't see how the cost of our flavours can be affected as mentioned by someone. They are flavours - food grade flavours.

[Karma]

Jun 12, 2013 20:44:24 GMT a1laserboy said:

I can't see how the cost of our flavours can be affected as mentioned by someone. They are flavours - food grade flavours.

Nor me, but it would affect flavoured and unflavoured nicotine liquid 

[oldsmokey]

I'm just a simple bloke but, as I see it, all ecigs (however exotic or simple) are simply devices for dispensing eliquid in vapour form. If eliquid is a 'medicine' than what exactly is it supposed to cure? If I was an eliquid supplier then what sort of clinical trial would I be required to sponsor to demonstrate that my product was an effective medicine?

I understand that the MHRA are funded by pharmaceutical companies - isn't that a bit like the Mafia funding the FBI?

If they insist that ecigs have no more than 4mg nicotine content will they ban all tobacco cigarettes that yield more than 4mg? That should clear some space on the shelves at the local supermarket! Surely there must be fair competition in the marketplace - or are tobacco companies to be given a legal monopoly on high-yield nicotine products by banning ecigs with similar performance? How is that legal in a free market economy?

Frankly I think our 'leaders' are (as usual) completely out of their depths. I seriously doubt that any of this can work in the real world.... if I'm wrong then I can still remember (just) how to build a barricade

[a1laserboy]

Jun 12, 2013 20:47:12 GMT Karma said:

Jun 12, 2013 20:44:24 GMT a1laserboy said:

I can't see how the cost of our flavours can be affected as mentioned by someone. They are flavours - food grade flavours.

Nor me, but it would affect flavoured and unflavoured nicotine liquid 

True, but by then I'm sure we will have all stocked up at least 17l of the stuff I know I will

[Blownupdolly]

Has ECiTA said anything yet in response to all this today? Been busy tonight so might have missed things here and there.

[matt1988]

They will take it to court. They will fight them on the beaches! lol

[Blownupdolly]

Jun 12, 2013 21:25:32 GMT matt1988 said:

They will take it to court. They will fight them at the beaches! lol

Hope so, but not heard a response yet. Maybe they are too busy drawing up a battle plan!