All quiet on the Western front

[Sassy]

Oct 7, 2013 16:41:35 GMT kibbster said:

Oct 7, 2013 16:19:46 GMT Sassy said:

The basic gist is the EU want E-cigs classified as medicines which means (in the UK) the MHRA would have to be paid a lot of money (Millions of £s) to allow them to be released.
Anything that doesn't have this Marketing Authorisation would be made illegal and removed from the shelves from 2016 or earlier.
As nothing to date has been granted an MA after years of trying and millions of pounds it's safe to assume it would be a ban on vaping.
In the EU in some countries medicines can only be sold in pharmacies... If they want to even sell them. 

Thank you for the clear explanation! kibbster

[4madcats]

Sassy Currently it's the EU that's the potential threat. For over 10yrs there's been a thing called the Tobacco Products Directive or TPD rumbling on, with a view to reducing tobacco consumption by whatever means.

Meanwhile in 2010 with prompting by Big Pharma no doubt, the UK MHRA tried to get ecigs classed as a medicine because it was becoming apparent that folks where actually swapping ecigs for smoking (have to be very careful how I phrase that). On this basis MHRA took the view that they were smoking cessation aids & therefore should be medicines like all the other NRT's.

MHRA got knocked back in 2010 by another government dept who said 'no need for medicine regs' basically too heavy handed, so go away & re-think it.

In 2012 ecigs got lumped into the TPD & where again the view was taken that they were cessation aids so should be medicines, how much cross pollination there was from big P & big T to promote that idea we'll probably never know, but the original proposal suggested that anything over 4mg in strength should become medical, which would virtually wipe out the majority of liquids we use.

This year because of what was happening with the TPD, MHRA came back & tried the same thing again, but with an announcement that the medicines route was definitely going to happen by 2016. They had done nothing new to substantiate this but were banking on the TPD going through unchallenged. The MHRA were taking the view that because ecigs don't give a regulated dose like NRT's they needed bringing into line, & because they don't give a regulated dose NOTHING currently on the market is suitable, so everything we currently use from ego's to eliquid to all the clearo's would eventually become unavailable on general sale.

Everything would need an individual medical license, so every individual strength of every individual flavour of liquid would need it's own license & that's a massive cost to obtain the license's, ecigwizard estimated they would need 900 seperate license's at a cost of £1.8 billion, & yes that was billion.

One of the biggest ecig retailers selling all the usual kit got confirmation that none of their current products was good enough to pass the licensing procedure, assuming they could afford it.

The only one's who could afford to get their products licensed are big P & big T, so what we would be probably left with is something closely resembling an NRT inhalator & probably as non-effective.

Tomorrow there is a vote on the TPD in the EU, but there has been a much looser amendment proposed then the original 4mg limit & medical regs, but it would still leave us with a max strength of liquid at 30mg, how that would affect nic base, currently available in the UK at 75mg & therefore liquid vendors is unclear & that's pretty much were we'er up to, anything else till after this vote is speculation.

Hope I haven't muddied things anymore for you.

[4madcats]

Opps just seen while I've been rambling kibbster has been very succinct

[kibbster]

Oct 7, 2013 17:06:44 GMT Sassy said:

Oct 7, 2013 16:41:35 GMT kibbster said:

The basic gist is the EU want E-cigs classified as medicines which means (in the UK) the MHRA would have to be paid a lot of money (Millions of £s) to allow them to be released.
Anything that doesn't have this Marketing Authorisation would be made illegal and removed from the shelves from 2016 or earlier.
As nothing to date has been granted an MA after years of trying and millions of pounds it's safe to assume it would be a ban on vaping.
In the EU in some countries medicines can only be sold in pharmacies... If they want to even sell them. 

Thank you for the clear explanation! kibbster

No problem Sassy,
It's been a rollercoaster ride since the EU announced their intention in December last year.
Sides have changed and lots of amendments put forward to be voted on.
The legislation has been proposed by Labour and they have shown they've got no intention of talking to vapers or listening to any alternative point of view.
Middle of the year the EU voted against E-cigs staying as they are and we were thrashed quite heavily, but since then we regrouped and came back stronger.
We've been using Twitter to campaign as well as writing to all our MPs and MEPs, there's been a trip to Brussels to protest outside parliament and over the past few months we've actually changed MEPs minds about E-cigs (well not Labour but there's no hope for them!)
Three MEPs came out and said they'd fight for us after talking to us and asking what we wanted and along with a few high level clever people in Health and tobacco control we've hit pretty hard on Twitter, Facebook and any vaping article in any publication anywhere.
If it's about vaping we've generally been all over it.
We became so organised we got accused of being tobacco lobbyists as if we were paid to do it, quite a compliment in an offensive way I guess
So we await the vote on amendments tomorrow, a lot of us will be watching it live and commenting on it as it happens

[kibbster]

Oct 7, 2013 17:12:30 GMT 4madcats said:

Opps just seen while I've been rambling kibbster has been very succinct

Yours was more accurate tbh 

[dnglos]

The latest WHO statement doesn't actually mention e-cigs. Is that a good sign?

[loobiebloo]

I'd like to say a big thank you to kibbster and 4madcats for explaining this so clearly and to Sassy for asking the question. I've only been vaping for a short while and was vaguely aware that something big was going on but I wasn't entirely sure what it was all about other than some big boy wanting to take my new toys away.

[kibbster]

Oct 7, 2013 17:47:17 GMT dnglos said:

The latest WHO statement doesn't actually mention e-cigs. Is that a good sign?

It's interesting.
Maybe because it's become the biggest issue and one they know creates negative social media they are ignoring it for the mo.

Maybe they don't actually disagree with the amendment 170.
I don't know but I do know I wouldn't trust them after what they twitter bombed just before the ENVI vote.

[vereybowring]

The politicians were not prepared for how hard we have been fighting against this crap.

Oct 7, 2013 15:39:49 GMT dnglos said:

Just heard that Anna Soubry's gone (reshuffled to Defence) So that's one of the ANTZ out of the way.
Let's hope the damage she's done can be repaired.

Ah crap, not the MOD !
Armageddon can't be far off if her past work is anything to go by. . .
Please don't let her anywhere near nuclear stuff !

[kibbster]

Well I am officially perturbed now.
9pm and not one negative or ANTZ tweet all day.

Something funny going on... must be.
Used to be able to set your watch by the trolls trolling e-cig users.

[Sassy]

Oct 7, 2013 17:12:30 GMT 4madcats said:

Opps just seen while I've been rambling kibbster has been very succinct

You've both explained it so well, thank you both!

I'm quite a prolific twitter user - feel free to share anyone I should be tweeting/following regarding this all

I put my soapbox around here somewhere...

[kibbster]

Oct 7, 2013 20:09:04 GMT Sassy said:

Oct 7, 2013 17:12:30 GMT 4madcats said:

Opps just seen while I've been rambling kibbster has been very succinct

You've both explained it so well, thank you both!

I'm quite a prolific twitter user - feel free to share anyone I should be tweeting/following regarding this all

I put my soapbox around here somewhere...

I'm kibbster666 and Dave Dorn hifistud is good, then just follow anyone Dave or I follow.

[dnglos]

Oct 7, 2013 20:09:04 GMT Sassy said:

Oct 7, 2013 17:12:30 GMT 4madcats said:

Opps just seen while I've been rambling kibbster has been very succinct

You've both explained it so well, thank you both!

I'm quite a prolific twitter user - feel free to share anyone I should be tweeting/following regarding this all

I put my soapbox around here somewhere...

Sassy You might have to teach me how to work twitter - I haven't got a clue ???

Anyway, if it comes down to blitzing the MEPs you might find this DD video useful.

[dnglos]

Oct 7, 2013 20:13:11 GMT kibbster said:

I'm kibbster666 and Dave Dorn hifistud is good, then just follow anyone Dave or I follow.

kibbster Ok, I can see we're following one another - what do I do now?

Edit: Hang on, I've just found your tweets. Reckon I'm getting the hang of this.

[kibbster]

Oct 7, 2013 20:45:45 GMT dnglos said:

Oct 7, 2013 20:13:11 GMT kibbster said:

I'm kibbster666 and Dave Dorn hifistud is good, then just follow anyone Dave or I follow.

kibbster Ok, I can see we're following one another - what do I do now?

Edit: Hang on, I've just found your tweets. Reckon I'm getting the hang of this.

Normally I'd say wait for the tweets to roll in, then reply (no point in retweeting if you haven't got any followers)
But today is really quiet for once.