Nicotine – Not as dangerous or addictive as we thought?

[freddo]

Hey all,

"If you’d asked me the above question 5 years ago when I was a tobacco smoker of over 30 years I would have answered “Of course – that’s why it’s so difficult to give up” Roll forward 5 years and ask me the same question and I would in all honesty answer “Probably not, but maybe that’s what we’ve all been led to believe”."

[buggritt]

Nicotine is addictive. Nowhere, i that over wordy piece, contains any evidence that it's not. And I believe it's generally known that it's about as dangerous as caffeine.
The fact that people go back to cigs doesn't point to nic being less addictive than we thought. It points to the habitual nature of smoking, the ritual if you like.
My view is simple. Let the EU do what it likes, we won't stop them anyway. Vote to leave as soon as we are asked.
Meanwhile, stock up on diy.

[markm]

I guess you missed some of the links, this one for instance:
nicotinepolicy.net/karl-fagerstrom/520-dependence-on-tobacco-and-nicotine

[markm]

Or perhaps this:
www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2867865/E-cigarettes-addictive-study-finds-experts-warn-long-term-health-benefits-unknown.html

[buggritt]

If you accept that "other" ingredients are responsible for cigarette addiction, then vaping can't be an alternative. But it clearly is.
The only thing contained in both is nicotine.

[Deleted]

I had read on another forum somewhere that all this talk of nicotine being highly addictive and dangerous is down to two scientists, and their report back in 1988.
Said scientists were also connected in some way to the Tobacco industry!

[markm]

Dec 10, 2014 13:30:55 GMT buggritt said:

If you accept that "other" ingredients are responsible for cigarette addiction, then vaping can't be an alternative. But it clearly is.
The only thing contained in both is nicotine.

So when presented with some science, that you complained you hadn't seen.....

[*-SARIN-*]

Find a research paper that conclusively states that nicotine is addictive - you won't. The science community is split on this issue with some stating that it is other substances in the tobacco, others stating that nicotine use causes more nicotine receptors to be produced by the body and that's why you crave more and more. What i can tell you is that nicotine is one of another 40+ alkaloids in tobacco that share the same molecular make up and this is where the science stops. The other very similar alkaloids haven't been researched. Nicotine has already been proven to be less toxic that previously thought and the LD50 is about to be revised. Tobacco addiction is much more than just the nicotine and it is thought that e-cigarettes work so well because they mimic the act of smoking without the nasties rather than just replacing the nicotine lost from giving up smoking. Also bear in mind that nicotine is a natural substance found in numerous vegetables, so the first time your body encounters nicotine isn't the first time that you have a cigarette. Your body has nicotinic acetylcholine receptors (nAChR's) as standard to deal with nicotine in the food that you eat so nicotine itself isn't a foreign molecule to your body.

[Bobsbeer]

An interesting article but sadly biased, although I'm probably inclined to believe the findings. But I would say that as a vaper. I was a 20+ a day smoker until 3 weeks ago and haven't touched a cigarette since. Neither do I have cravings, although I still look around for my tobacco tin, but vape instead. So there must be something in nicotine vaping that is taking away the withdrawal symptoms related to stopping smoking. I tend to agree that vaping is also replacing some of the 'habit' of smoking. First thing in a morning, after a meal, with a pint etc. Nicotine may or may not be dangerous, but it is powerful stuff if ingested. Anyone who has had a slug of e juice will know the feeling.

[Deleted]

I have taken cannabis, coke, LSD, speed etc in large quantities sometimes over long periods. Heroin for a week on a deserted Island in Thailand, neither proud or ashamed, just liked to try anything once and live life to the full.

Now a dad of two and 40years old there is only one drug I am addicted to and that is nicotine, I do not need a report or any science to tell me how addictive the stuff is.

[markm]

The important point is that we get addicted to Nic by smoking cigs
its something other than the nic that creates the strong addiction.
There appears to be no evidence that using nic without tobacco can
start a nic addiction.

Therefore there can be no mythical addiction gateway.
The argument is full of holes anyway and not borne out in the real world.
But its nice to see it fall apart, even as a potential scenario.

[Deleted]

The advice often given on here to new vapers asking what strength nic to start on, is related to what type of smoke they were on and how many. Whys that?

And many on here aim to gradually cut their nic down, indeed some started on 24mg because they needed it and are down to 6mg.

I agree with @letsavit as buggritt said the only thing contained in both cigarettes and vaping is nicotine, and who could quit by sucking a pen? I need the nicotine.

[buggritt]

Even as a non science graduate, mine is in history, I have to look at research then decide what I believe.
40 years a smoker. Tried cold turkey, seasonal reference slipped in, and was gagging for a cig in hours. Picked up an ego - never looked back.
I think the argument from "our" side is simple. I'm doing no harm, so leave me alone.

[Bobsbeer]

The other argument, that vaping is a gateway to smoking is probably so minute to be laughable. Are there any members on here who NEVER smoked tobacco before giving e cigs a go? I'm sure there might be the odd person, but given the complexity and overwhelming choice of equipment the average adult or child for that matter will throw their hands up in horror, and buy a pack of fags, or at the very least buy a disposable e cig. I have never tried one of those so can't comment on there quality or performance. But how many then go on to smoking? Anecdotal I know. But common sense would tell me exceedingly few. Kids do what's cool. And at age 58 I've no idea what's cool nowadays. But I don't see many kids wandering around with an e cig.

The brave thing for the government to do would be to ban tobacco, and subsidise e cigs by removing VAT on starter sets and e juice. Now that would make a difference. Not sure politicians are that brave.

[Deleted]

The blog post is not saying nicotine is not addictive, it is saying it is not as addictive and dangerous as received wisdom often suggests.

It is not surprising that most people are confused by this. Even the NHS describes nicotine as highly addictive. They even tell us that "Some research has suggested that nicotine can be more addictive than heroin." They cite no research. In the US the National Institute of Drug Abuse (drugabuse.gov) also states the highly addictive nature of nicotine - no research. Look further and you will find numerous sites that tell us just how addictive nicotine is - thefix.com tells us that it is the third most addictive drug after heroin and crack cocaine. Again no research.

For an alternative view to this highly addictive mantra read this article E Cigarette Politics. He cites his research.

One of the problems I can see is that smoking addiction and nicotine addiction is conflated. Most of the reasons given as to why nicotine is addictive is because smoking is hard to quit. If it was all about nicotine then patches would work - they don't.

Addiction is a complex area, and arises as a result of physiological, psychological and environmental factors. Hard science alone will not provide the answers.

Always follow the money when reading a report. There are a lot of organisations who benefit from the harmful and addictive story. For example Big Pharma has a real interest in this area. Nictotine Replacment products represent a market of about $3 Billion (FT Article). They also have a huge influence on the WHO - funnily enough they don't believe in vaping. Of course big tobacco want a highly regulated market to raise the cost of entry and stop all those pesky little suppliers. For the future of a TPD-vaping world look at this product - controlled, leak free, non-refillable, expensive and from big tobacco...available today.

The 1988 report that is most often mentioned is the Surgeon General report The Health Consequences of Smoking - Link For Full Report