Vaping ethanol

[Greg]

Oct 15, 2015 9:47:35 GMT Bobsbeer said:

Oct 13, 2015 14:31:40 GMT *-SARIN-* said:

Yes ethanol is safe in moderation, it's a component in all drinking alcohol - abuse it though and it will kill you via depression of the central nervous system, either that or you will choke on your own vomit.

I agree ethanol is safe to drink in moderation of course.  That wasn't what I asked.

Complete combustion will yield only carbon dioxide and water but given the right conditions it can undergo oxidation to form acetaldehydes. However the major difference between the products produced between heating (vaping) and combustion has to do with the other substances in the chemical system. In an engine there is an abundance of NOx (Nitrous oxide or nitric oxide), themselves both powerful oxidisers with the ability to produce acetaldehydes from ethanol, this is not the case with vaping.

While I agree that there may be other substances added to vehicle fuel, I'm talking about ethanol.  My original question was about vaping ethanol, not stuff out of a pump at a petrol station.  I also agree that we are not igniting ethanol during vaping, merely heating it to a high temperature. So yes there are major differences.  That wasn't the question I asked.  I asked does anyone know if formaldehyde and acetaldehyde are formed when vaping juice that contains ethanol?

Formaldehyde is not produced from the heating of ethanol but could be a by-product of a burning wick from a dry hit and ethanol being flammable could cause more of the wick to burn for longer.

The above statement comes closest to answering my question, and if you have evidence it would be good to see?  I would like to believe that merely heating isn't going to create formaldehyde, although I remain sceptical and would like to see any evidence to support that assertion.

TL;DR

Safe? - Yes
Formed? - Not in normal conditions but possible in other circumstances.

PS: Both acetaldehydes and formaldehyde are present in much larger amounts in tobacco smoke - mainly due to the combustion of the tobacco.

Don't get me wrong, I appreciate that vaping carries risks.  Much of those risks we don't yet know the answer.  I also agree that smoking will be hugely more harmful than vaping ever can be.  I also accept that the amount of ethanol in any of our juices will be a very small proportion of the volume we consume.  It therefore follows that the amounts of toxic substances, if present, will be very small.  Therefore the harm may be small.  It may be negligible.  I don't know that's why I asked.  I probably breath in more harmful contaminants walking to the shops from all the diesel/petrol fumes than I would in a years worth of vaping.

My question was more about being a fully informed vaper rather than continuing in blissful ignorance.  If there is evidence one way or the other we should be able to discuss it in an open free way.  I have no plans to stop vaping unless evidence were to be found that the risk of doing myself harm was high.  An unlikely scenario.  Knowledge gives us choices.  Not all ejuice contains ethanol.  I will continue to use my juice until I read evidence to the contrary.  But lets do this with knowledge not guesswork and supposition.

I think you'll find the response from *-SARIN-* is based on more that guesswork and supposition  given his credentials*thumb up*

[Bobsbeer]

I don't doubt it Greg I am not questioning *-SARIN-*'s knowledge or credentials. If the evidence is there, great, then let's read it.

[*-SARIN-*]

Bobsbeer

You are right to question what you are vaping and i applaud you for highlighting it to the forum. I will try to answer your original questions and statements in a better way as i can see now where the confusion may have come in.

Statement 1 - Ethanol combustion in an internal combustion engine yields many of the products of incomplete combustion produced by gasoline and significantly larger amounts of formaldehyde and related species such as acetaldehyde.[35]

This is correct, when mixed with other chemicals and substances in a combustion engine there is the possibility of formaldehyde and acetaldehydes being produced. It has to do with the other substances in the chemical system. In an engine there is an abundance of NOx (Nitrous oxide or nitric oxide), themselves both powerful oxidisers with the ability to produce acetaldehydes from ethanol, this is not the case with vaping. There is no NOx in any vaping related chemicals so the formation of formaldehyde and acetaldehydes cannot and will not occur.

Question 1 - Does anyone know if formaldehyde and acetaldehyde are formed when vaping juice that contains ethanol?

The heating (vaping) of e-liquids that include ethanol will not produce formaldehyde or acetaldehydes. The ethanol has to reach it's flash point to combust which increases with higher dilution, heating is not combustion. By just heating alone and not allowing the ethanol to reach it's flash point you are merely changing the state of the ethanol from a liquid to a gas (vapourising). In essence you are inhaling vapourised alcohol - this is what they do in nightclubs but the temperature of heating has to be strictly controlled depending on the ethanol dilution ratio. For 40% alcohol (vodka) you would need to make sure that the temperature was under 26 degrees or it would reach it's flash point and combust - producing CO₂ and water and making the effort pointless (it's a bit more complex than this and depends on the other substances in the liquid but you get the idea). If the ethanol reaches it's flash point (dependent on it's diluition ratio within the substance) then it breaks down to carbon dioxide and water in the following chemical equation:

C₂H₅OH + 3 O₂ -----> 2 CO₂ + 3 H₂O

Statement 2 - Therefore the amount of toxic agents given off has also got to be small.

There are no toxic agents to give off, only either vapourised ethanol, carbon dioxide, water or a combination of the three.

Question 2 - Is heating ethanol to the temperature we vape at producing these toxic and carcinogenic chemicals?

No, these chemicals cannot be produced from heating ethanol, only via combustion in the presence of NOx in a system such as a combustion engine.

Statement 3 - I probably breath in more harmful contaminants walking to the shops from all the diesel/petrol fumes than I would in a years worth of vaping.

Spot on matey, the average London street is one of the worst places for toxic and carcinogenic chemicals.


You have to remember that an atomiser is not a combustion engine and does not work in the same way even though it might have the same chemical in it's system (ethanol). The ethanol is not the problem it is the NOx produced in the engine. Vaping does not produce NOx and therefore the ethanol can't react with it to produce acetaldehydes or formaldehyde.

HOWEVER, AND THIS IS A BIGGIE!


Some junk studies have reported that there is more formaldehyde in e-cigarettes than normal cigarettes. Firstly the study chose to use e-cigarettes out of their normal usage range. Essentially they held the button down longer than any vaper would normally do (through fear of a dry hit). Guess what? The wick burnt and produced all the nasties associated with inhaling burning material and smoke including formaldehyde and it's toxic friends. The study was quickly rubbished and recently there have been better ones that completely blow it out of the water.

If you were to use a dripper and vaped on the beast for a lot longer than you should then the wick will burn and set on fire and YES you will be inhaling all the nasties that you don't really want to (if you can manage to keep inhaling without coughing your guts up). The upside is that even then there are still less than in a normal stinky.

I will concede though that if you are vaping a juice that includes ethanol then the flash point of that juice will be lowered and therefore be more susceptible to combustion at lower temperatures. Sorry bud i don't have the enthusiasm to work the figures out right now but it's what happens when a low flash point reactant is added to a higher flash point reactant

As for the evidence, take a look at some of the juice companies that have published their GC-MS results to see what chemicals are produced and in what volumes (ppm) during simulated vaping tests. Where you might come unstuck here is that they might not state that they do or do not add ethanol to the juice. I hope that this has helped to clarify what i originally wrote and alleviates some of your concerns.

PHEW - Time for a lie down

VAPE ON.

[Bobsbeer]

Thanks *-SARIN-*. Thanks for the explanation. While I don't add ethanol to my juice mix, I know it's in there as part of the flavour liquid mix. Quite how much I don't know, but it has to be less than 20% as that's the volume of flavour liquid added. Hence my question when I read the statement on Wikipedia. Thankfully I don't have flames shooting out of the drip tip.

[*-SARIN-*]

Oct 15, 2015 16:48:58 GMT Bobsbeer said:

Thanks *-SARIN-*. Thanks for the explanation. While I don't add ethanol to my juice mix, I know it's in there as part of the flavour liquid mix. Quite how much I don't know, but it has to be less than 20% as that's the volume of flavour liquid added. Hence my question when I read the statement on Wikipedia. Thankfully I don't have flames shooting out of the drip tip.

It'll be low, really low, less than 5%.  The DIY'ers will be able to tell you what % they add.