Response to Totally Wicked's challenge to TPD

[Richard46]

Advocate General 'comments' on Totally Wicked's challenge to TPD
curia.europa.eu/jcms/upload/docs/application/pdf/2015-12/cp150154en.pdf

No surprises there.

[Bobsbeer]

Now we have that, I will be very surprised if the judges rule in TW's favour come next spring. So for those who hoped this would be the saving grace for vaping need to think again I fear. But you never know till the fat lady sings and we have the actual judgement, but it is going to need more than crossed fingers to get it through.

[djs]

Read this

Advocate General Kokott emphasises in that regard that e-cigarettes are a novel
and — for large parts of the population at least — still relatively little known product for which there
is a rapidly developing market. In addition, it is not manifestly wrong or unreasonable to accept, in
adopting internal market harmonisation measures, that e-cigarettes possibly cause risks to human
health and that the product could — above all in the case of adolescents and young adults —
develop into a gateway to nicotine addiction and, ultimately, traditional tobacco consumption

Oh... so, it's that old chestnut. Pathetic.

[Get Off My Cloud]

e-cigarettes possibly cause risks to human health and that that product could—above all in the case of adolescents and young adults—develop into a gateway to nicotine addiction and, ultimately,traditional tobacco consumption.
Also in the case of e-cigarettes

The whole gateway argument in my view is bogus anyway but even if one were to accept that there are such things as gateway drugs etc isn't it usually the case the argument is that the user starts on something soft and gradually builds an immunity and needs more and more to sate their appetite and that leads to them trying stronger alternatives?
How is this the case with e-cigs? Everybody as far as i can see who vapes doesn't increase their nicotine intake over time they stick to the same level or in most cases reduce it.
Has anyone ever met someone who started on 3mg Nic juice and is now vaping 24mg because 3mg just doesn't satisfy?

[Richard46]

Dec 23, 2015 10:26:51 GMT djs said:

Read this

Advocate General Kokott emphasises in that regard that e-cigarettes are a novel
and — for large parts of the population at least — still relatively little known product for which there
is a rapidly developing market. In addition, it is not manifestly wrong or unreasonable to accept, in
adopting internal market harmonisation measures, that e-cigarettes possibly cause risks to human
health and that the product could — above all in the case of adolescents and young adults —
develop into a gateway to nicotine addiction and, ultimately, traditional tobacco consumption

Oh... so, it's that old chestnut. Pathetic.

At least no pretense that she ploughed through all the evidence. A perfectly good groundless assumption provided the conclusion she wanted.

[Bobsbeer]

I think in reality it is as many expected. We shouldn't be disheartened by it, as I would have been exceedingly surprised if it had said anything else. Let's face it the TW challenge is a slim to non chance anyway, and nothing today has changed that. So I would urge everyone not to get your hopes up for the final say on the matter next spring. We need to go forwards on the basis that TPD will be coming in next May, and do what we can within the rules as are being published. If I have my dates correct, the final UK draft of the legislation needs to be published around mid March if they are to get it into force by 20 May. It needs to be laid before parliament 40 days prior to adoption in law. So I would expect to see substantive texts coming from the DoH in the early part of 2016, January or February time. As with the initial publication in July, it will have a short time for discussion before it goes into final draft for parliament. We are expecting to get the official government response to the July publication, and I suspect they will sneak it out on a day there has been an earthquake or something, which is what they usually do with controversial news, to avoid it being headline news. Anyway my bet is January.

[robby]

[robby]

100thousand.com/take-part/


If you haven`t signed that, please do, it may be the last hope.

[VapingBad]

Can't say I'm that surprised, disappointed definitely, but not surprised the power of that Big Tobacco & Big Parma have through professional lobbyists and the old boy network and get disproved conjecture taken as legitimate concerns is not to be underestimated.

On a positive note the TPD refilling regs are soo much better than were imagined, they are about the bottles rather than the tanks.

[Deleted]

Sometimes.......there comes a point when you just need to ignore the bullshit.

Ask yourself this.....if you couldn't vape......would you go back to smoking? I think a lot will answer yes to that if they are being honest. So, with that as an alternative it's time to become an outlaw.....and just carry on vaping.

There are plenty around that can make their own juices, build their own coils......and even their own mods. So, faced with the choice of returning to something you KNOW will kill you.....or continuing to vape......what are you going to choose?

Vaping is a consumer created solution to the tobacco problem....and despite what the 'rules' say, it's a GOOD solution!
Time to ignore the 'rules' that only serve the pockets of big tobacco and big pharma.

The more that stand up for themselves and vape on, the easier it will get to save other lives. It's time for the governments of the world to realise that, ultimately, the people have the power.

We all just need to be brave enough collectively to use it.

[nanotm]

well that's pretty much as expected, "we don't need to follow the laws set out by us for how to formulate new laws because were making the new law"

the TW court case was never likely to be granted an easy path, if it had been heard purely on its own without the inclusion of big tobacco's cases then it might have stood a better chance but it seems that unless a miracle happens the advocate general's stance will govern the outcome irrespective of any legal merits there might be.

common sense dictates that the TCI will do everything possible to prevent its own demise and that means ensuring tobacco continues to be consumed at roughly the same rate, the entire nonsenseicle argument about nicotine being "bad" could be seen though by anyone with an ounce of sense when you realise you can walk into any pharmacy In the EU and purchase nicotine products (like Nicorette) without a single health warning on the packageing despite being equal to the 20mg/10ml strength option being proposed for maximum sizes in the e-liquids......which apparently have to have some form of health warnings about the dangers ....


in all likelihood the legal action will end up beign an expensive waste of time and money because the corruption of the EU's near totalitarian leadership is structured in such a way to make it impossible for them to succeed

[robby]

The advocates have considered the case (to help the judges) and that is their legal opinion which the judges are very unlikely to go against.

[Deleted]

Dec 23, 2015 12:02:29 GMT robby said:

The advocates have considered the case (to help the judges) and that is their legal opinion which the judges are very unlikely to go against.

It was never going to be the case that these " Advocate's" and "judges" were going to go against what the government wanted.

[robby]

Probably because they didn`t have a legal case, judges and advocates know next to nothing about actual vaping. They were just concerned about the legality of the TPD.

[glen]

I'm just glad that I made the decision this time last year to give up the fags and try ecigs, its the people considering making the switch in the future who will suffer most, I know if all I had was an ego type device that I would be back on the horrible fags by now.