Am I bovvered? - Do I look bovvered?

[Bobsbeer]

At pain of being shot, I am coming around to thinking that TPD once it has come into being is not going to change my vaping in any way whatsoever. You may all think I am blindfolded in face of the colossus of TPD and what appear to be draconian regulations, or have added an illegal substance to my e juice. Only time will tell I guess. However I do have a smidgen of rationale to my thinking. I'm not talking the mom and pop B&M stores up and down the country, they will take a monstrous hit. I'm not even talking about the many internet stores. Yup they too will take a hit. I'm just being purely selfish and thinking about myself. How am I going to be affected short and long term. The short answer is, hardly any or not even in the slightest. And I think that will also apply to many on here. The man's a nutter, of course vaping is going to change beyond all recognition come 20 May, I can hear people shouting.



So why the illogical optimism? The rules as they are written is the simple answer. In many respects they don't apply to me. Simple. Let's break this down a bit. I make my own juice, I bottle it in my own, okay reused 10ml bottles. Is that going to change on 20 May? No. Go back a step. Aside from the fact that my freezer is full of 72mg nicotine juice, I will be quite surprised if I can't purchase 500ml plus of 72mg nicotine liquid after 20 May. Nowhere in the new regulations does it say purchasing 500ml of 72mg strength nicotine will be illegal. If you don't believe me go read the proposed rules, then read them again, and you may understand my thinking. As I said, just incase I'm wrong, I have 2lt of nic in the freezer, just in case. Next, my atomiser. Clearly nothing in the rules prevents me from using any of my current equipment. I purchase ready made coils on the whole, mainly because my limited coiling abilities are shit. So where does it say in the rules coil heads are illegal to purchase? It doesn't, so I fully expect to have an ongoing supply. What about the newfangled all singing and dancing atty, that I must have? Again no problem. Where does it say I can't purchase a new fangled breath freshener? This is the only tricky one, but if nothing else we are inventive. The mod. Basically a battery or designed to contain a battery. Again with a little imagination no problem getting hold of them.



So all in all, in a totally selfish manner I can say I'm alright Jack, so piss off you ignorant self serving bigots from the DoH and EU.

[VapingBad]

To me the big loop hole is that any empty refillable or battery/mod can be bought for use with zero nic and thereby be exempt from the regulations completely (> 2 ml tanks & no need for 6 month product notification).

But it is the current smokers that are going to continue to die younger.

[Bobsbeer]

Maybe VapingBad, but vaping is not going to disappear off the face of the earth, so they will still see people vaping, and vaping forums will be continuing as though nothing has changed. So the information will be out there if they look. Nothing will stop Stop Smoking services recommending it, as they are just getting around to following the PHE report. So I don't think things are as bleak as all that. Newcomers will come into the hobby, maybe via a different route, but they will still come. I look at it this way. I didn't start vaping because I saw an ad on TV, or a billboard. I just knew vaping existed and went on the internet and purchased a kit. The rest is history as they say. So the lack of advertising won't stop them. Indeed there may be more official advertising about it, so all in all new people will move from cigs to e cigs. However I do agree, there may not be the same choice as there was when I started, but in many respects that may not be a bad thing. I was confused to hell when I started over what to pick.

[nanotm]

in other rergions where vaping was banned already legal proceedings were initiated to take all the forums and facebook groups offline, the regulations here are not worded any differently and suggest the same will be done, indeed they are worded such that

"the service provider or host will not have committed a crime so long as they remove offending materials that were published before the commencement date as soon as they are notified of them"

indicating they very much plan to get rid of all forums and undertake legal proceedings against offenders (anything for a quick buck) there will be ways round that legislation legally that would permit suh things to continue but until the final draft is published we wont be able to formulate them properly, taking action to early will enable the loopholes to blocked, undertaking "civil disobedience " might sound great but in practice it will harm a lot of people and see the powers that be undertake kneejerk reactions and be even more heavy handed and disruptive to normal lives.

the way things are going the EU is clearly gearing up to employing a new brand of jackbooted stormtroopers to control the lives of the many and enforce the will of the few, big business is the new vanguard of the reich and all the signs are they will be worse than the last iteration of it.....

[Get Off My Cloud]

Yes but once they start implementing rules it's usually just a start, they will use those existing rules to justify new tighter regulations further down the line, once the EU clamp down and the FDA do the same in the states how long before China figures it's not the big moneyspinner anymore?

[Richard46]

Dec 23, 2015 15:47:16 GMT nanotm said:

in other rergions where vaping was banned already legal proceedings were initiated to take all the forums and facebook groups offline, the regulations here are not worded any differently and suggest the same will be done, indeed they are worded such that

"the service provider or host will not have committed a crime so long as they remove offending materials that were published before the commencement date as soon as they are notified of them"

indicating they very much plan to get rid of all forums and undertake legal proceedings against offenders (anything for a quick buck) there will be ways round that legislation legally that would permit suh things to continue but until the final draft is published we wont be able to formulate them properly, taking action to early will enable the loopholes to blocked, undertaking "civil disobedience " might sound great but in practice it will harm a lot of people and see the powers that be undertake kneejerk reactions and be even more heavy handed and disruptive to normal lives.

the way things are going the EU is clearly gearing up to employing a new brand of jackbooted stormtroopers to control the lives of the many and enforce the will of the few, big business is the new vanguard of the reich and all the signs are they will be worse than the last iteration of it.....

nanotm Can you tell us what you have quoted from there; sorry but I cannot find it.

[Ron]

I think that quote is from the advertising ban

[Bobsbeer]

Since when were the posts we put on here 'commercial communication' or could even remotely be considered commercial? If I was a vendor touting my latest atty or juice, possible, but that does not apply to Joe Public. We have no commercial interest in what we say. So for that reason this and other forums will continue without even a heartbeat missed. I'm not sure why we are trying to scare the pants off ourselves, when in reality most of the upcoming shit has no relevance to the normal vaper in the street. I guess the proof will emerge when we pass the deadline, but, with the rules as written now, much of what has been said up to now is a load of bollocks, and people need to read it properly, take time to understand it, rather than follow the herd.

[nanotm]

Dec 23, 2015 15:51:11 GMT Get Off My Cloud said:

Yes but once they start implementing rules it's usually just a start, they will use those existing rules to justify new tighter regulations further down the line, once the EU clamp down and the FDA do the same in the states how long before China figures it's not the big moneyspinner anymore?

china is already undertaking to ban e-cigs because they are eating into the state tobacco companies revenues, they don't even attempt to hide under the auspices of protecting health or thinking of the children, but prefer to point out its the duty of all good comrades to ensure the stable flow of cash to fund the state for the benefit of all (got to love communism) to the point that if it goes ahead they will be banned from all e-cig activities even those for export  and any offenders will be executed for treason .... at least that's the proposal put forwards by the governor of one district to the national parliament, something several other "key figures" (state puppets) have also supported.....

Dec 23, 2015 16:07:36 GMT Ron said:

I think that quote is from the advertising ban

it is indeed.

Dec 23, 2015 16:12:45 GMT Bobsbeer said:

Since when were the posts we put on here 'commercial communication' or could even remotely be considered commercial? If I was a vendor touting my latest atty or juice, possible, but that does not apply to Joe Public. We have no commercial interest in what we say. So for that reason this and other forums will continue without even a heartbeat missed. I'm not sure why we are trying to scare the pants off ourselves, when in reality most of the upcoming shit has no relevance to the normal vaper in the street. I guess the proof will emerge when we pass the deadline, but, with the rules as written now, much of what has been said up to now is a load of bollocks, and people need to read it properly, take time to understand it, rather than follow the herd.

because the words of the act are very clear,

any promotion or has the effect of promoting the product(s)

it matters not how you see that applying only how the lawyers for the various "interested groups" see it as being applicable, they have a better than fair chance of obtaining cash from your naivety so they will ensure they extract it with attachments orders your great grandkids will struggle under the weight of to ensure that a few people are made into social pariahs the rest will do what is good for them ! 

[Richard46]

Dec 23, 2015 16:07:36 GMT Ron said:

I think that quote is from the advertising ban

Which ban is that? If you mean the advertising bans laid down in the document that Planet of the Vapes obtained then no that quote does not come from it; as far as I can see anyway.

www.planetofthevapes.co.uk/news/politics-campaigns/2015-11-27_draft-ecig-proposal-bans-all-uk-advertising.html

Presumably there is another document.

[Bobsbeer]

Dec 23, 2015 16:12:59 GMT nanotm said:

because the words of the act are very clear,

any promotion or has the effect of promoting the product(s)

it matters not how you see that applying only how the lawyers for the various "interested groups" see it as being applicable, they have a better than fair chance of obtaining cash from your naivety so they will ensure they extract it with attachments orders your great grandkids will struggle under the weight of to ensure that a few people are made into social pariahs the rest will do what is good for them ! 

Even lawyers have to follow the law as written.  I disagree with your extracted section as being remotely relevant to us.  You have taken it out of context of what has been written.  As with any law, you can't just look at sections in isolation.  You need to read them in context to their relationship with the other parts.  I am assuming you lifted your section from the draft Part 7 HERE published by DoH on 11/12/15. Although I can't find that exact phrase, I'm guessing it came from Section 1 or 4.

So let's look at that part and why I think you are wrong.  

Section 1 is all about definitions and interpretation, which is a good place to start.

1.—(1) In this Part “electronic cigarette advertisement” means a commercial communication
 with—

(a) the aim of promoting an electronic cigarette or refill container; or

(b) the direct or indirect effect of promoting one.


So we know what the definition of an electronic cigarette advertisement is.  What does this apply to?  Nearly all, but in the context of the forum, Section 3.  So what does that say?

3.—(1) No person may include, or procure the inclusion of an electronic cigarette advertisement
 in an information society service provided to a recipient in the United Kingdom.

(2) No service provider established in the United Kingdom may include an electronic cigarette
 advertisement in an information society service provided to a recipient in an EEA state other than
 the United Kingdom (“a non-UK-EEA state”).

Under any way of reading the above it appears very clear to me that the regulations are not aimed at you or I discussing e cigs till the cows come home, as the rules are talking about commercial communication.  As I said earlier you can't just lift sentences at will, and neither do judges or lawyers.  They look at the whole and the way each is relevant to the other.

[yourgurnard]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic (who, Me?!.. ) re. 'Zer Directive', but yes, all of Us here wiv a collection of mods/atties & diy-ing Our juice will be ok; it's the people trying to make a living from vaping retail &, (as VB said) those that are still smoking/just starting vaping that I feel for.
Vaping, as is,WILL be 'outlawed' for the protection of BT/BP sacred profits.....I still remember how cross-channel tobacco purchasers were ILLEGALLY robbed, hassled & misiled...EU rules notwithstanding...to protect Gubberment & BT revenues. Same tactics will obtain as the £Reason's the same.
Stock-pile & 'Evangelize'......& practice Your stealth vaping!!!

[Greg]

You certainly sound bothered the prattling on you've been doing of late Bobsbeer

Life's too short, drink and be merry

[nanotm]

Bobsbeer

which is all good and well until you read part one section 3 b

(3) For the purposes of this Part, a service provider is established in a particular EEA state, if the service provider— (b) is a national of an EEA state,

which doesn't sound so bad until you re read part 1 and notice this

“any service normally provided for remuneration, at a distance, by means of electronic equipment for the processing (including digital compression) and storage of data, and at the individual request of a recipient of a service”; “recipient” means a person who (whether for professional purposes or otherwise) uses an information society service, in particular for seeking information or making it accessible

so you making a post after the 20th may 2016 recommending or providing information on any forum anywhere in the world is in fact a criminal offence if it can be accessed by anyone who resides within any part of the EEA.

you don't need to have been paying for the service for it to be a commercial one, if it can be proven that other companies do charge to provide the service to other people, you don't need to be making any money from the dispensing of advice or recommendation because someone will be, in fact its a criminal offence to give the advice in the first place.

please continue to post after this draconian "you will live how I tell you" law gets implemented under the guise of "its not as bad as we could have made it" tripe, the only way it could of been worse would of been to outright ban the products, they didn't do that because the people with the money want to strangle this market opportunity as well as the other parts of it they already strangle.

I will be buying in quantities of the items I expect to become non existent in the future including spares for my tanks and nic base to mix with my baking supplies, more than half of what we use on a day ot day basis will become scarce to impossible to source once the various legislations kick in around the world, so unless someone starts up a factory making the tanks here in the UK were not going to be able to find them at affordable prices for much longer.

[Bobsbeer]

I was Greg, till I decided to go and look at the proposed regulations and properly read and understand them. There has been way too much outright incitement and mistruth said about it, that I wanted to know for myself how it was going to effect me in the future. This has led me to the understanding that in reality it isn't going to effect me at all, so no worries here Greg, life is actually quite chilled. However if people want to run around shouting that the sky is falling, then so be it, but we should not be posting misinformation and in some cases total shit. As I said in an earlier post, if we can't trust the vaping community to tell the truth, then we have no hope.