giles
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Post by giles on Dec 20, 2012 18:29:04 GMT
Does anybody know if the 2011 figures for number of smokers in the UK are available? I think they were supposed to come out in August but I can't find them.
Point is, if the number of ecig users is anything like that claimed, and most of us have quit smoking, then we should start to see a reduced number of smokers. If we can persuade people that one is the result of the other then it becomes an important argument for leaving ecigs alone.
Scotland figures are published, 2011 is 2% down on 2010, compared to normal reduction rate of 0.5%, a difference ASH Scotland describes as "statistically significant" without asking why it happened.
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djs
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Post by djs on Dec 20, 2012 19:22:41 GMT
There is supposed to be <1/2 a million e-cig users in the UK.
Trouble is, how many still smoke.....?
If there are 100,000 who have completely quit fags, surely there is a chance for us to not be overlooked?
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ChillerVapes
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Post by ChillerVapes on Dec 20, 2012 19:26:56 GMT
Nicotine can be extracted from other sources then it wouldn't be classed as a tobacco product at all
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giles
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Post by giles on Dec 20, 2012 20:13:55 GMT
Any chance that diy mixing could stay under the radar for a while longer? Not unless you already have the nic. Sales of nic will be limited to 8ml bottles of 4mg. Nicotine can be extracted from other sources then it wouldn't be classed as a tobacco product at all Won't help. Proposed rules apply to nic, not tobacco. We'd have to import our nic in advance of the ban. With any luck no-one will realise just how much it is possible to stack up. But folks, we haven't lost yet. With any luck, and if enough of us harass the politicians, by the time the actual votes come round we'll have enough support, and by then enough data, to win this battle.
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addict
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Post by addict on Dec 20, 2012 23:59:18 GMT
Thanks, Giles, for the clarification. Looks like it's back to Plan A for me - wean myself down to zero nic and use the ecigs to satisfy my need for throat hit.
Without meaning to be controversial, I don't see how it helps to label everyone opposed to ecigs as being somehow corrupt or ignorant. Not being British, I suppose my input here is an intrusion, but all the mud slinging strikes me as being counter-productive.......not exactly a charm offensive.
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giles
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Post by giles on Dec 21, 2012 0:48:58 GMT
Your input isn't an intrusion addict, and you are right - it doesn't help to label people as corrupt or ignorant, even when it happens to be true.
You can store 5 year's nic with no great trouble. You can take your time about weaning yourself down.
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addict
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Post by addict on Dec 21, 2012 18:48:21 GMT
I'm kind of old fashioned in thinking it wrong to impugn people's integrity without evidence. New to ecigs, most of what I have read from the vaping community have been accusations of public representatives and officials, even the British Medical Association, being in the pockets of big pharma or big tobacco. Meanwhile, big pharma and big tobacco have been getting their opinions across to the people who matter, i.e. the people being accused of corruption by the vaping community. Isn't that what successful lobbyists do? No fear of them using insults and allegations as a means of persuasion. Failures tend to blame everybody but themselves.
I sincerely wish you luck with the campaign but will stockpile supplies just in case.
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farzooks
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Post by farzooks on Dec 21, 2012 23:26:49 GMT
And how, exactly, do you "make your own" when you can't get hold of nicotine?? I'd grow my own tobacco and extract it. Simples. People have been growing their own tobacco in greenhouses since WWI, because of rationing back then. There was a steady but growing movement of GYO over the past several years, I found on the web. A couple of years back the UK govt tried to regulate it, but I've no doubt there are still plenty of people doing it That was another thing that had me wondering if there was an EU impetus behind it - because of Big Tobacco sticking its oar in, or the ninnies in the Smoking Is Evil lobby.
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farzooks
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Post by farzooks on Dec 22, 2012 0:17:39 GMT
I'm kind of old fashioned in thinking it wrong to impugn people's integrity without evidence. New to ecigs, most of what I have read from the vaping community have been accusations of public representatives and officials, even the British Medical Association, being in the pockets of big pharma or big tobacco. Meanwhile, big pharma and big tobacco have been getting their opinions across to the people who matter, i.e. the people being accused of corruption by the vaping community. Isn't that what successful lobbyists do? No fear of them using insults and allegations as a means of persuasion. Failures tend to blame everybody but themselves. I sincerely wish you luck with the campaign but will stockpile supplies just in case. You must be joking about Big Tobacco not corrupting as many public officials as it can, when it deems it necessary or expedient. There doesn't even need to be money changing hands - plenty of low-level corruption goes on with promises of positions, grant money, influence peddling and just general back-rubbing. Ye gods, look at the filthy, corrupt history of BT in the US and other places.
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addict
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Post by addict on Dec 22, 2012 11:58:15 GMT
I didn't say that officials and politicians aren't being bought off. I said it is wrong to accuse the officials without real evidence. Wherever there is power and money there will always be corruption but not everybody is corruptible. Even allowing for some officials and politicians having been bought off, I don't see how casting slurs on all of them is a good lobbying tactic. Just my take on what I have read on this and other forums. I could well be wrong, but so could you.
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hifistud
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Post by hifistud on Dec 22, 2012 12:27:36 GMT
You may have misconstrued the meaning of a great number of posts. Aside from the what would appear to be fairly solid evidence of a very large bribe being sought from Swedish Match by Dalli's team, most other bribery polemic is, as you posit, lacking evidence. However, it's almost unquestionable that Big Pharma has, over a period of years, planted disinformation (read "lies") in the minds of legislators and others to the extent that - as we have seen - one-time employees of controlling bodies (MHRA and other similar organisations in other countries) end up with lucrative positions on BP boards, lucrative "consultancies" and so forth. However, while there's a lot of investigative journalism and a big story there, it's not that helpful to the current problem in hand. To that extent, we are in agreement. I'm kind of old fashioned in thinking it wrong to impugn people's integrity without evidence. New to ecigs, most of what I have read from the vaping community have been accusations of public representatives and officials, even the British Medical Association, being in the pockets of big pharma or big tobacco. Meanwhile, big pharma and big tobacco have been getting their opinions across to the people who matter, i.e. the people being accused of corruption by the vaping community. Isn't that what successful lobbyists do? No fear of them using insults and allegations as a means of persuasion. Failures tend to blame everybody but themselves. I sincerely wish you luck with the campaign but will stockpile supplies just in case.
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MadDan
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Post by MadDan on Dec 22, 2012 23:11:33 GMT
Personally I wouldn't be too hopeful of persuading the British Government not to implement any such future directive.
I think it's worth noting that it is the British Government which has set itself to tax smoking out of people's reach (which is the only reasonable explanation of the monstrous increases which they have imposed throughout the current recession). The British (& Irish) Government(s) were also pretty quick of the mark in instituting comprehensive smoking bans.
While I'm aware the EU is hardly blameless in all this, our 'anti-nanny-state' government has clearly decided that we are too stupid to be allowed to make our own decisions about this stuff.
On top of which, think how well it would play in Europe if they were seen to be acting early and draconian on this as a trade-off, eg for some deal on whether prisoners should get the vote. And the price for this would be hacking off, say, a couple of million of ordinary voters who they frankly could care less about anyway.
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giles
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Post by giles on Dec 23, 2012 0:38:29 GMT
Personally I wouldn't be too hopeful of persuading the British Government not to implement any such future directive. I'm a bit more optimistic. If we can delay the decision for a while that may be enough. If the number of vapers is growing at the rate claimed and if we are right in thinking that most of us quit smoking, then in a couple of years there will be enough of us for our votes to matter, we'll have a good case based on harm reduction, and by then there'll be more evidence that the habit is essentially harmless. A delay of a couple of years is quite possible if we fight for it. Legislation takes a long time anyway, and it only takes a few determined politicians to slow it down further. But we do have to fight. But stockpile, of course. If there's one thing this habit/hobby teaches you it is the need for a back-up.
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glynwhite
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Post by glynwhite on Dec 25, 2012 6:07:33 GMT
MEPs and MP written to. Extraordinary clamp down proposal whilst hashish and the like are steadily nearing legalisation. And what about my Human Rights? Its laughable
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