Updates on Plenary

[4madcats]

Oct 9, 2013 10:35:35 GMT barrynorton said:

What people also generally don't realise about EU directives is that the UK often pushes them and then over-implements them. The Daily Mail don't tell you that, they'd prefer you to believe it's foreigners telling us which bananas we can sell.

Take a look at farming, as one example, it's often us trying to bring the Continent into line with our practices (or plans for more toughly regulated practice).

It fits together very neatly with the common market, when you really examine it. We believe that sow pens need to be banned but if we do that we lose our competitiveness, so we try to make everyone do it.


I hate to sound preachy, but unless you understand our relationship with the EU you stand to over-estimate the (small) victory we just won.


Sorry to keep editing/extending this, but here's my point: one stratagem in going back, now, to our national government is to say: most of us serious vapers currently get our equipment directly from China, but suffer poor quality/testing, poor service and slow postage. In a stable, cautiously-regulated European market (i.e., which does not require medical authorisation) a healthy mature trade will quickly establish itself and consequently British people will buy their equipment from the Continent. Even if you try to prevent this, other European countries in this developing market will challenge you on the basis of free trade. It is your responsibility to British industry not to legislate beyond the European agreement.

Sorry Barry but I think your on a serious hiding to nothing with the last paragraph. Just because someone developes shiniyitus does not make them a serious vaper, it merely means you've turned a lifestyle choice (to vape as opposed to smoking) into a hobby.

What is your definiation of a serious vaper, someone who use's over 24mg juice perhaps, someone who vapes more then 5ml a day, someone who owns a Provari, Semovar, GGTS, someone who has a shed load of Chinese copies, or someone who's been vaping since the beginning.

To me a serious vaper is someone who has made the transition to vaping from smoking 100% & you don't need to buy your kit directly from China to do that.
We've have been hearing the figure of 1.3million vapers in the UK & I would bet the majority of those are still using cigalikes or Ego kits & are perfectly happy, they'er just never going to be interested in a Vamo or Chi clone.

Don't get me wrong I would love to see basic kit being manufactured in the EU, but the micro electronics base is too well established in China, I reckon the closest we would ever come is already a system in process, company registers in the EU takes the appropriate flag, figures out how best to avoid paying the appropriate level of tax & still gets everything manufactured in China, after all if it's good enough for Apple. . . & if by some miracle the manufacturing base did move to the EU the one thing I can guarantee is that you could absolutely kiss goodbye to all the cheap copies & clones, cos the original manufacturers would actually have a better then a snowballs chance in hell of enforcing copyright.

Devils Advocate, you would be effectively protecting the rights of the few & restricting the choice of the many.

[barrynorton]

Sorry, that wasn't meant to be definitional for 'serious vapers' and was probably too hurriedly expressed. You'll see in my letter that I decided to drop the China argument altogether and decide to stick to Europe.

I did have a serious point to make - not about Chinese-based manufacture, but about European standards. How many of us have devices that have no, or worse fake, CE marks for instance?

CE does not mean manufactured in Europe, and nor should it (as you observe all except the really high-end mods are made in the Far East and this will not change), but it is an important part of moving profit, legitimacy and most of all safety in a Western direction. Manufactured in China doesn't mean that innovation, engagement and profit shouldn't take place in Europe.

On liquids there's more to life than cheap manufacture and our industries in the North of the Island seem to be establishing themselves well. I really don't want to see that undermined.

[dnglos]

Oct 9, 2013 11:53:44 GMT barrynorton said:

Same typo too? (I'm guessing it's meant to read: Attempts must now be made)

You're right. Her own website has the same statement but with the word "now".

[4madcats]

Oct 9, 2013 13:10:28 GMT barrynorton said:

Sorry, that wasn't meant to be definitional for 'serious vapers' and was probably too hurriedly expressed. You'll see in my letter that I decided to drop the China argument altogether and decide to stick to Europe.

I did have a serious point to make - not about Chinese-based manufacture, but about European standards. How many of us have devices that have no, or worse fake, CE marks for instance?

CE does not mean manufactured in Europe, and nor should it (and you observe all except the really high-end mods are made in the Far East and this will not change), but it is an important part of moving profit, legitimacy and most of all safety in a Western direction.

On liquids there's more to life than cheap manufacture and our industries in the North of the Island seem to be establishing themselves well. I really don't want to see that undermined.

Don't think anyone thinks CE means manufactured in the EU, but it should mean the product is compliant with the relevant EU legislation covering that product, if in doubt ask the manufacturer for the relevant certification/declaration of conformity.

& re your quest on nicotine strength, think this might be a bit late if you've already written to your MP

ukvapers.org/Thread-Nicotine-lethal-dose-in-humans-is-inaccurate

[barrynorton]

4madcats you're taking a strangely adversarial stance here. Can I ask if you have CE certificates for all the devices you're selling.

The nicotine toxicity report is indeed useful, but I don't think it's going to have any effect on what's essentially a fair trade agreement. What should really happen with that is a revision of the 1982 UK Poisons Rules.

[4madcats]

Oct 9, 2013 13:36:12 GMT barrynorton said:

4madcats you're taking a strangely adversarial stance here. Can I ask if you have CE certificates for all the devices you're selling.

The nicotine toxicity report is indeed useful, but I don't think it's going to have any effect on what's essentially a fair trade agreement. What should really happen with that is a revision of the 1982 UK Poisons Rules.

Not adversarial in the least, just thought it was slightly patronizing to assume peeps thought that the CE mark meant manufactured in the EU, most folks think it's the initials for a particular regulation, & yes I do

The nicotine toxicity report is indeed useful, but I don't think it's going to have any effect on what's essentially a fair trade agreement. What should really happen with that is a revision of the 1982 UK Poisons Rules.

All they need to do is change the figure of 7.5% to 3.0% & blame the EU

[barrynorton]

Oct 9, 2013 14:04:02 GMT 4madcats said:

Not adversarial in the least, just thought it was slightly patronizing to assume peeps thought that the CE mark meant manufactured in the EU

Then I think we're just misunderstanding one another's tone because I didn't mean to suggest people don't know that - it's just a turn of phrase (which you're taking out of context). I prefer not to say "of course" in introducing such a clause because I was always told that was patronising.

yes I do.

Would you share the certificate for the 'Mini VV Ego Passthrough' then? Although the risk is low, since this has no AC component, it's one of the shoddiest devices on the market and I'd be very surprised to learn it's been through testing.

[4madcats]

Oct 9, 2013 14:11:14 GMT barrynorton said:

Oct 9, 2013 14:04:02 GMT 4madcats said:

Not adversarial in the least, just thought it was slightly patronizing to assume peeps thought that the CE mark meant manufactured in the EU

Then I think we're just misunderstanding one another's tone because I didn't mean to suggest people don't know that - it's just a turn of phrase (which you're taking out of context). I prefer not to say "of course" in introducing such a clause because I was always told that was patronising.

yes I do.

Would you share the certificate for the 'Mini VV Ego Passthrough' then? Although the risk is low, since this has no AC component, it's one of the shoddiest devices on the market and I'd be very surprised to learn it's been through testing.

Already on the website

[barrynorton]

Oct 9, 2013 14:13:11 GMT 4madcats said:

Oct 9, 2013 14:11:14 GMT barrynorton said:

Would you share the certificate for the 'Mini VV Ego Passthrough' then? Although the risk is low, since this has no AC component, it's one of the shoddiest devices on the market and I'd be very surprised to learn it's been through testing.

Already on the website

Help me out - all I see is 'Certification of Conformity For all Batteries' with scans of certificates for SETEK and EST.

[edit: Apologies - it's listed on the EST certificate]

[barrynorton]

Sorry to pick on you (when what really concerns me is that Innokin's VTR, my last big purchase, has no visible CE mark - whereas the MVP and even the iTaste 30s do), but where's your certificate for this product (with a rather suspect deformed CE marking)?

www.ecigs4vaping.co.uk/shop/4578837180/USB-Car-Charger/6211203

[barrynorton]

Here's the response received from a London MEP:

Dear Dr. Norton,

Thank you for your email. I have passed on your concerns to Martin Callanan MEP, the ECR Group shadow draftsman for this report. You can contact him directly if you wish by emailing [e-mail]


You can also find a link below to my speech I made in this week's plenary session on the issue of e-cigarettes.

www.marinayannakoudakis.com/london-mep-says-that-saving-e-cigarettes-will-save-lives/

As your London MEP I would be happy to receive further comments and suggestions on this issue. I have offices in London and in Brussels and if there is anything else you would like to bring to my attention please do not hesitate to get in touch. I am here to work on your behalf and would be delighted to hear from you.

Best Wishes,

Marina Yannakoudakis, Conservative MEP for London