Is it me... Or have we just crossed a line...

[chris86]

Dec 22, 2013 23:51:36 GMT a1laserboy said:

I believe the Australians say "live here, live by our rules, integrate into our society as it is or leave".

Why should we bend over to accept their single minded selfish attempts to alter our society to suit themselves?!

I've worked in many muslim countries including saudi, and there is no way they will change their behaviour there to suit my beliefs or way of life (well saudi is the worst - everything closes for prayer time, even if you are waiting in a sue to get served at mcdonalds, when the mosque starts, they close and kick everyone out). Some (the emirates) welcome us up to a point (i lived in abu dhabi for 18 months) and you can buy pork products from spinneys but have to get a liquor licence to buy take out booze from special shops. but in my experience the locals treat you with contempt. Then you have indonesia, malaysia and egypt that are muslim and christian mixed but much more open to other cultures.

You have to conform to their beliefs in their country or be in trouble with the police. Perhaps if they had the same threat here, they wouldn't be so up themselves.



Sorry if I seem racist, generally I'm not, but this really bugs me.

I’m afraid that I can’t agree with any of this. I think that issues like the M&S thing shouldn’t be taken too seriously. More importantly, I think that a free and open country should never try to force anyone to integrate. There are two reasons for this - one is a matter of principle and the other is more pragmatic:

Firstly, forcing people to live their lives in certain ways leads to an overly rigid and controlled society. You complain about having had to adhere to rules that are alien to your culture when you lived in Saudi Arabia, yet you suggest that Muslims should be forced to adhere to Western norms when living in Britain. This seems self-contradictory to me. Surely a good thing about living in Britain, as opposed to Saudi Arabia, is that people have the freedom to act in accordance with their own norms and beliefs rather than being forced to integrate whether they like it or not.

Secondly, trying to force people to integrate is counter-productive, because telling people that they have to give up their own culture and adopt yours instead is likely to just turn them against you. Being forced to wear a Burka wouldn’t make most British women take kindly to Islam. Similarly, trying to force Muslims to adopt a more Western attitude will make them want to cling all the more tightly to their own customs. Genuine integration only happens when people freely choose to adopt new ways of life, and they are much more likely to do this if they feel welcomed and valued rather than restricted and oppressed.

I think that the vast majority of Muslim people want to live here peacefully and get on with their lives without being forced to choose between being British and being Muslim. And I see no reason at all why they can’t be both. It’s not as if praying regularly, wearing certain items of clothing and not handling pork or alcohol are massively disruptive. You might get occasional minor problems like this incident in M&S, but that’s a small price to pay for living in a tolerant society. And while fundamentalist Islam is dangerous (as is all fundamentalism), it only accounts for a very small minority of British Muslims. Unfortunately, the right-wing press likes to pick up on minor issues and blow them out of all proportion, while creating the illusion of an inherent link between Islam and terrorism. But that’s because the right-wing press has its own rather sinister agenda.

[giles]

Dec 22, 2013 22:11:59 GMT kibbster said:

It's in the Daily Fail you can be pretty sure it's probably made up or at least one sided.

Unusually, they seem to be right - also in the Mirror & Telegraph.

Used to be, you occasionally wound up in a queue with a check-out person under 18 who couldn't sell you alcohol, though it hasn't happened to me for some time. They'd just call someone over to swipe it for them. Presumably Muslims could do the same.

But I agree with earlier posts - if you object that much to pork & booze, shouldn't you work somewhere else?

[chris86]

Dec 23, 2013 0:40:26 GMT giles said:

Dec 22, 2013 22:11:59 GMT kibbster said:

It's in the Daily Fail you can be pretty sure it's probably made up or at least one sided.

But I agree with earlier posts - if you object that much to pork & booze, shouldn't you work somewhere else?

I understand this point, but I think that in the current economic climate, a lot of people have to take whatever work they can get. And getting a job on on the checkout in a supermarket may well be the only work available to some people.

[X&Y]

Sorry

But if they want to live in our country then we have rules as well.

I wouldn't dare going to another another country without a quick check of the rules/laws, although i'm guessing there's nothing i do that could be deemed as wrong.

I get fed up of people claiming they are coming from poverish places and then seeking refuge here and then moaning that it's not good here and not wanting to fit in.

M&S have since apologised.

I've bought many a pack of overpriced bacon and a can of overpriced beer from corner shops run by Muslims.

Double standards me thinks.

[giles]

Not all Muslims believe the same things - some are stricter than others. Nearest equivalent in Christianity would be Sunday working (which I think that the strict Christians lost the right to refuse?)

Dec 23, 2013 0:43:43 GMT chris86 said:

I think that in the current economic climate, a lot of people have to take whatever work they can get. And getting a job on on the checkout in a supermarket may well be the only work available to some people.

Maybe you are right chris86 but I wouldn't have thought that M&S was at the bottom of the job heap, and there's other sorts of shop with checkouts. And shelves to stack at M&S.

Then again, maybe M&S is doing this because it has some shops (maybe in areas with large Muslim populations) where they have trouble employing enough non-Muslims, and they expect to get round it easily enough elsewhere.

[OneDay]

Let's not for get that Michael Marks (the Marks in Marks and Spencer) was Jewish. Jews can't eat pork, yet they've happily sold it for years.

The Jewish Chronicle have just posted an article saying that M&S have confirmed that as muslims don't have to sell pork at checkouts, neither do jews.

The world is quickly going crazy

[a1laserboy]

Dec 23, 2013 0:43:43 GMT chris86 said:

I understand this point, but I think that in the current economic climate, a lot of people have to take whatever work they can get. And getting a job on on the checkout in a supermarket may well be the only work available to some people.

So in that case, tow the line and get on with it. Don't seek to force your overblown beliefs onto people and corporations 'because you can'. They know what they are getting into. If they don't want to handle some of the products, then they shouldn't be doing the job. I would have thought that anyone applying for a job on the food tills in m&s would know that they sell pork and alcohol products so shouldn't apply if they are uncomfortable handling them. If they want to be sure that they won't, go work in a halal shop.

Or perhaps the shops should ask applicants if the applicants have a problem with handling such items, make them sign a contract stating it and not employ them if they are? Oh, no they can't. That would be racist and intolerant of their beliefs..

crazy.

[chris86]

Dec 23, 2013 0:48:00 GMT X&Y said:

Sorry

But if they want to live in our country then we have rules as well.

I wouldn't dare going to another another country without a quick check of the rules/laws, although i'm guessing there's nothing i do that could be deemed as wrong.

I get fed up of people claiming they are coming from poverish places and then seeking refuge here and then moaning that it's not good here and not wanting to fit in.

M&S have since apologised.

I've bought many a pack of overpriced bacon and a can of overpriced beer from corner shops run by Muslims.

Double standards me thinks.

Muslims who live in Britain are expected to abide by the law, just like everyone else. This seems fair to me, but I see no reason why they should be subject to any additional rules or restrictions. As long as their actions remain within the law and they don't hurt anyone, then surely there's no problem with them adhering to their own customs. I think that tolerance and respect for other cultures results in a more unified and integrated society than demanding that people change their ways of life. 

All religious doctrines are open to interpretation and some Muslims interpret the Koran more strictly than others, so some will be ok with selling pork and alcohol (but won't touch it themselves) while others won't. As far as I'm concerned, that's down to each individual's personal choice. I'm sure that there are some Muslims who overcharge for goods, but there are plenty of non-Muslims who do that too! 

[oldsmokey]

Wasn't there a Monty Python sketch where a bloke goes into a bookshop and demands a copy of the Bumper Book of British Birds - but without the Gannet....

Seems to me that if you apply for a job you need to acquaint yourself with the duties you are potentially taking on. If you feel that you are unable to carry out some of those tasks for ethical or religious reasons then don't apply for the job!

I have an aversion to killing animals, so I would never apply for a job in a slaughterhouse. A friend of mine (a staunch Catholic) refuses to work in a shop that sells contraceptives. I doubt you will find any qualified surgeons who are Christian Scientists. So having strong religious or ethical beliefs may limit your employment opportunities....

Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs - but they are not, in my view, entitled to insist that everybody else changes their lives (or employment practices) to come into line with them.

[a1laserboy]

So refusing to serve someone pork products and alcohol isn't a way of demanding that people change their way of life, in a country that has traditionally consumed these products for centuries? In a shop that has been running for around a century selling said products?

[Blownupdolly]

Dec 23, 2013 1:15:41 GMT oldsmokey said:

Wasn't there a Monty Python sketch where a bloke goes into a bookshop and demands a copy of the Bumper Book of British Birds - but without the Gannet....

Seems to me that if you apply for a job you need to acquaint yourself with the duties you are potentially taking on. If you feel that you are unable to carry out some of those tasks for ethical or religious reasons then don't apply for the job!

I have an aversion to killing animals, so I would never apply for a job in a slaughterhouse. A friend of mine (a staunch Catholic) refuses to work in a shop that sells contraceptives. I doubt you will find any qualified surgeons who are Christian Scientists. So having strong religious or ethical beliefs may limit your employment opportunities....

Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs - but they are not, in my view, entitled to insist that everybody else changes their lives (or employment practices) to come into line with them.

Spot on!

I don't care what religion colour or creed anyone is. As long as they treat me well that is all I ask for. My issue is if said person encroaches on me and my life. Do I really want to be at the end of a queue when I go shopping,getting held up and frustrated whilst we all have to wait for other staff to come over to do something that would take all of a few seconds to do? No I don't!!

[chris86]

Dec 23, 2013 1:15:41 GMT oldsmokey said:

Everybody is entitled to their own beliefs - but they are not, in my view, entitled to insist that everybody else changes their lives (or employment practices) to come into line with them.

I agree with this, but I think that there's a difference between being pushed to change employment practices, and choosing to do so in order to accommodate certain beliefs and ways of life. I don't think that supermarkets are being forced to ensure that Muslim employees don't have to handle pork and alcohol. But some employers might choose to have policies about this kind of thing in order to create a happier working environment for their staff. And that's fair enough in my view. 

[chris86]

Dec 23, 2013 1:16:36 GMT a1laserboy said:

So refusing to serve someone pork products and alcohol isn't a way of demanding that people change their way of life, in a country that has traditionally consumed these products for centuries? In a shop that has been running for around a century selling said products?

It's not as if M&S are preventing customers from buying pork and alcohol. This was one isolated incident in which one employee stated that they weren't prepared to personally serve pork and alcohol. The customer could then be served pork and alcohol by another employee. So all that happened was that a customer had a bit of minor inconvenience for a few minutes. And minor inconveniences are fairly common occurrences when shopping. 

In short, it's a fuss over nothing. I think that the question we should be asking is why the Daily Mail considers this news-worthy in the first place. What's their agenda behind making a big deal out of this? 

[a1laserboy]

Dec 23, 2013 1:24:26 GMT chris86 said:

I agree with this, but I think that there's a difference between being pushed to change employment practices, and choosing to do so in order to accommodate certain beliefs and ways of life. I don't think that supermarkets are being forced to ensure that Muslim employees don't have to handle pork and alcohol. But some employers might choose to have policies about this kind of thing in order to create a happier working environment for their staff. And that's fair enough in my view. 

They ARE being forced - can't you see that? How would it look if it were the other way around, 'big corporate supermarket forces muslim workers to handle pork and alcohol against their religious beliefs' So what do they do? pander to them because really, they have no choice.

[chris86]

Dec 23, 2013 1:32:25 GMT a1laserboy said:

Dec 23, 2013 1:24:26 GMT chris86 said:

I agree with this, but I think that there's a difference between being pushed to change employment practices, and choosing to do so in order to accommodate certain beliefs and ways of life. I don't think that supermarkets are being forced to ensure that Muslim employees don't have to handle pork and alcohol. But some employers might choose to have policies about this kind of thing in order to create a happier working environment for their staff. And that's fair enough in my view. 

They ARE being forced - can't you see that? How would it look if it were the other way around, 'big corporate supermarket forces muslim workers to handle pork and alcohol against their religious beliefs' So what do they do? pander to them because really, they have no choice.

Some employers have clearly been asked to be accommodating to certain religious beliefs by their employees, but as far as I'm aware, employers are under no legal obligation to agree to the demands that Muslim workers shouldn't have to handle pork and alcohol. And in the current political climate (which is hostile to Muslims, immigration and political correctness), coming across as particularly politically correct is probably more likely to lead to negative headlines than being anti-Muslim. Let's face it, the Daily Mail would be praising M&S if they refused to be accommodating to Muslim employees.