Bulk nicotine

[Brambles]

@letsavit,
What you are seeing is a void, a vacuum bubble, but over time air can be sucked in very very slowly. I would just decant a bit out of each bottle.
You can actually work out how much volume of liquid to remove.
To save getting technical I have looked up the coefficient of expansion and worked it all out. So in theory when you freeze the base liquid it will contract around 3 to 3.5ml.
Assuming the vacuum created is replaced with air and air is easily compressed 50% to 70% you want to remove 7 to 8 ml (Allowing for air also being more dense at -18 degrees) in a 100ml bottle. (twice this amount in a 200ml bottle) to remain absolutely safe.
Incidentally I have only left a 5ml space in my 200ml Bottles but I always loosen a bottle top when defrosting unless there is a large air space.

[Perpetua]

I've always just filled up to around the neck of any bottle which has gone into the freezer . . . zero science as to why I did that at the time, just it makes life easier to decant/syringe out some when I want to use it.

Nice to know from Brambles more informed calculations, it's been the better option to do.

[Deleted]

Dec 28, 2014 19:34:38 GMT Brambles said:

@letsavit,
What you are seeing is a void, a vacuum bubble, but over time air can be sucked in very very slowly. I would just decant a bit out of each bottle.
You can actually work out how much volume of liquid to remove.
To save getting technical I have looked up the coefficient of expansion and worked it all out. So in theory when you freeze the base liquid it will contract around 3 to 3.5ml.
Assuming the vacuum created is replaced with air and air is easily compressed 50% to 70% you want to remove 7 to 8 ml (Allowing for air also being more dense at -18 degrees) in a 100ml bottle. (twice this amount in a 200ml bottle) to remain absolutely safe.
Incidentally I have only left a 5ml space in my 200ml Bottles but I always loosen a bottle top when defrosting unless there is a large air space.

I'm just thinking if air can get in (vacuum through the cap) it will get out (expansion through the cap). I'm also thinking you're cleverer than me...! so I'll syringe 10ml out of each tomorrow. Do I need to remove caps and let defrost first? 

What you do mate, how do you know about this? Would be good for you and *-SARIN-* to openly discuss on this thread. 

[Deleted]

Dec 28, 2014 21:35:50 GMT Perpetua said:

I've always just filled up to around the neck of any bottle which has gone into the freezer . . . zero science as to why I did that at the time, just it makes life easier to decant/syringe out some when I want to use it.

Nice to know from Brambles more informed calculations, it's been the better option to do.

And you have done 3.5 years testing the above........

[Perpetua]

Dec 28, 2014 21:49:14 GMT @letsavit said:

Dec 28, 2014 21:35:50 GMT Perpetua said:

I've always just filled up to around the neck of any bottle which has gone into the freezer . . . zero science as to why I did that at the time, just it makes life easier to decant/syringe out some when I want to use it.

Nice to know from Brambles more informed calculations, it's been the better option to do.

And you have done 3.5 years testing the above........

Yep.

[300]

I'm just coming to the end of 4L of 54mg PG nic base i got from Ecig Wizard over 2 yrs ago, kept in a cool dark cupboard for the whole of that time. It's slightly darker in colour than when i first got it but it smells OK, tastes OK & vapes very well, so i wouldn't worry too much.

I've also got 8L 72mg in the freezer & worry even less about that.

Having said that though i remember Jason had to dump some nic base that had gone off after a short time & there was a chap over the road on UKV did the same recently with some VG nic base. Perhaps it has more to do with the quality of the nic base to start with rather than the way it's stored by the end user..... just thinking out loud.

Some good info in this thread though, forewarned is forearmed.

[igual]

Brilliant thread peeps and some great advice given.
Currently I have 900 mil in freezer 500 mil in VG base and 400 mil in pg base
These are in 100 mil amber bottles all date coded.
Tops are also sealed with PTFE tape + gaffer tape.
Did leave a 5 mm gap at top of each bottle.

Hopefully will be ordering anouther liter in Feb/march.
Last lot I got was from everything liquid VG based.

[*-SARIN-*]

No need to worry about the PG freezing (around -60 DEG C) as your freezer won't get anywhere near that cold and hence the total contraction of 3-3.5ml that Brambles worked out above will not occur. Chemical bottles are also designed to be very robust and the cap will fail before the glass breaks. The base will get very gloopy but won't freeze like ice - PG COULD be used as antifreeze and ethylene glycol IS used in antifreeze for this exact reason. You could use PG in your radiator and a ratio of 30% PG 70% water is good to around -14 Deg C but really just go to Halfords instead

[VapingBad]

PG is used as antifreeze for ornamental ponds and fountains which is the root of the lie the antz sometimes peddle that e-liquid contains antifreeze.

[Brambles]

Dec 29, 2014 13:49:54 GMT *-SARIN-* said:

No need to worry about the PG freezing (around -60 DEG C) as your freezer won't get anywhere near that cold and hence the total contraction of 3-3.5ml that Brambles worked out above will not occur. Chemical bottles are also designed to be very robust and the cap will fail before the glass breaks. The base will get very gloopy but won't freeze like ice - PG COULD be used as antifreeze and ethylene glycol IS used in antifreeze for this exact reason. You could use PG in your radiator and a ratio of 30% PG 70% water is good to around -14 Deg C but really just go to Halfords instead

Sorry, but PG will change vol with temperature and I worked it out based on a drop from 25 deg C to - 20 deg C.
All materials ( well most) expand or contract with a change in temperature. It is niothing to do with the PG changing state from a liquid to a solid which occurs when Water freezes and becomes Ice.
The PG will contract from 100ml to 96.72ml. Physical fact and calculated using the coefficient of expansion ( ?) for PG which is 0.00073. I have ignored the nicotine as it is a low percentage and will have a similar coefficient of expansion.
The formula is dV = V0 ? (t1 - t0)

[Brambles]

Before some one says "Ahhhhhh but, the glass bottle will also reduce in volume" so no space is created. I have just worked it out and a 100 ml glass bottle will become approx 99.95ml when frozen in freezer. So just a 0.05ml drop so can be ignored.

[Brambles]

Dec 29, 2014 17:07:57 GMT VapingBad said:

PG is used as antifreeze for ornamental ponds and fountains which is the root of the lie the antz sometimes peddle that e-liquid contains antifreeze.

PG is also used where a food safe antifreeze is required and also in drinking water systems. For example you can use it in your caravan drinking water system to winterise it for storage. If you do not flush it all out it is non toxic so not an issue.

[300]

Dec 29, 2014 17:40:26 GMT Brambles said:

PG is also used where a food safe antifreeze is required and also in drinking water systems. For example you can use it in your caravan drinking water system to winterise it for storage. If you do not flush it all out it is non toxic so not an issue.[/quote]

Good tip, i never knew that.

[Deleted]

Dec 29, 2014 13:49:54 GMT *-SARIN-* said:

No need to worry about the PG freezing (around -60 DEG C) as your freezer won't get anywhere near that cold and hence the total contraction of 3-3.5ml that Brambles worked out above will not occur. Chemical bottles are also designed to be very robust and the cap will fail before the glass breaks. The base will get very gloopy but won't freeze like ice - PG COULD be used as antifreeze and ethylene glycol IS used in antifreeze for this exact reason. You could use PG in your radiator and a ratio of 30% PG 70% water is good to around -14 Deg C but really just go to Halfords instead

Thank you Sarin. 

[*-SARIN-*]

Dec 29, 2014 17:11:55 GMT Brambles said:

Dec 29, 2014 13:49:54 GMT *-SARIN-* said:

No need to worry about the PG freezing (around -60 DEG C) as your freezer won't get anywhere near that cold and hence the total contraction of 3-3.5ml that Brambles worked out above will not occur. Chemical bottles are also designed to be very robust and the cap will fail before the glass breaks. The base will get very gloopy but won't freeze like ice - PG COULD be used as antifreeze and ethylene glycol IS used in antifreeze for this exact reason. You could use PG in your radiator and a ratio of 30% PG 70% water is good to around -14 Deg C but really just go to Halfords instead

Sorry, but PG will change vol with temperature and I worked it out based on a drop from 25 deg C to - 20 deg C.
All materials ( well most) expand or contract with a change in temperature. It is niothing to do with the PG changing state from a liquid to a solid which occurs when Water freezes and becomes Ice.
The PG will contract from 100ml to 96.72ml. Physical fact and calculated using the coefficient of expansion ( ?) for PG which is 0.00073. I have ignored the nicotine as it is a low percentage and will have a similar coefficient of expansion.
The formula is dV = V0 ? (t1 - t0)

No fair enough you've done the sums at sensible temps, it's just that in your original post you were stating freezing.  Thanks for taking the time to work it out