Nicotine post TPD

[Bobsbeer]

It looks like whoever drafted the upcoming Statutory Instrument enshrining TPD into UK law may have left us with a loophole regarding nicotine liquid, and does not follow Article 20 as written.  

The UK version 

36.—(1) No person may produce or supply an electronic cigarette or a refill container which

contains a nicotine-containing liquid unless it complies with paragraphs (2) to (11).

(2) The nicotine-containing liquid must be in—

(a) a dedicated refill container not exceeding a volume of 10 millilitres;

(b) a disposable electronic cigarette; or

(c) a single use cartridge where the cartridge or tank does not exceed a volume of 2

millilitres.

(3) The nicotine-containing liquid may not contain nicotine in excess of 20 milligrams per

millilitre.


Reading the above you would think they have it covered, except that it only relates to e cigs and importantly, Refill Containers.  Compare the above with the wording from TPD:

3. Member States shall ensure that:

(a) nicotine-containing liquid is only placed on the market in dedicated refill containers not exceeding a volume of

10 ml, in disposable electronic cigarettes or in single use cartridges and that the cartridges or tanks do not exceed a

volume of 2 ml;

(b) the nicotine-containing liquid does not contain nicotine in excess of 20 mg/ml;

Very different wording and interpretation in my view.  The UK wording would allow the purchase of bulk nicotine and only when it is offered for sale to vapers to refill their atties does it need to be in a 10ml container with no more than 20 mg/ml concentration of nicotine.  A 500ml bottle or 5lt bottle could hardly be classed as a refill container!!  Therefore unless they come out with other regulations or the requirement for a licence to handle nicotine liquid prior to retail sale in refill containers, we should be able to purchase nicotine as we do now.  Commercial juice producers will not be buying their nicotine in 10ml containers I'm sure or at 20 mg/ml for that matter.  Yet there are no bulk regulations regarding this, so all of us DIY mixers should be able to carry on as normal.

[DiscoDes]

[GunJack]

Damn!! So I've got 4.7 litres in my freezer for nowt

[car147]

So have I lol

[Bobsbeer]

Haven't we all. Which is probably for the best as I may be wrong.

[cigeliquid]

The problem is that nicotine-containing liquid must be supplied/ only offered for sale in a dedicated Refill containers that has to conform to EU regulations - 10ml max with a non removable 1cm dropper correct label max of 20mg etc)
That would cover all sales on webshops and bricks and mortar outlets


Yes Commercial juice producers will be able to direct purchase nicotine base.
Most remaining Commercial juice producers will be purchasing Commercial nicotine base from producers in IBC 1000lt

Yes At this point in time industrial size nicotine base is being openly sold to the public - the size of bottles and the mg strength have crept up as new companies have attempted to price others out of a very small market over the last 5 years the mg price falling by over 90%

After TPD unless it is felt that selling DIY nicotine base in bulk would make vastly more profit than 10ml bottles of unflavoured 20mg the remaining
players will not risk ending up court in order offer it for sale to the public.

[GunJack]

well cigeliquid I don't like it, but I like the info provided, IYSWIM

[Bobsbeer]

Apr 17, 2016 12:05:58 GMT cigeliquid said:

The problem is that nicotine-containing liquid must be supplied/ only offered for sale in a dedicated Refill containers that has to conform to EU regulations - 10ml max with a non removable 1cm dropper correct label max of 20mg etc)
That would cover all sales on webshops and bricks and mortar outlets

You may well be right cigeliquid . I'm just looking at the wording of the upcoming SI that enshrines the EU rules into UK law. That is the law we will have to follow in the UK.  Which was why I was pointing out the subtle difference in the wording.  The UK law does not on the face of it prohibit sale or supply of nicotine containing liquid in other containers.  Unless it is intended to be a refill container.  Then the 10ml and 20mg rules come into play.  A 1lt bottle could hardly be described or used as a refill container.  If that could be described as a refill container, then so must a 1000lt IBC.  

However as you rightly say it will be up to the suppliers to offer it for sale, as they will be the ones potentially liable, not us the consumer.  There are no rules as far as I know regarding bulk nicotine containing liquid.  So if the rules are that tight then the manufacturer can only sell it in 10ml bottles to the distributor, and on to the retailer, juice maker etc.  I somehow don't see that happening.  The SI does not stipulate retail sales, just produce or supply.  So by that argument it will apply to all levels in the chain.  We all know that is unrealistic.

[davetherayon]

Mr Dorn produced a viable solution for UK traders. Supply a container of 10ml size at 18mg strength, and alongside that sell nic-free juice in, say, 30ml bottles but 20ml full. The consumer gets 1 of each, and mixes them to make 30 ml of 6mg strength. Legal, and since only the nic-containing juice would need to be tested by MHRA, cheaper for the producers as well. Of course it means the flavourings would have to be nic free as well.

[Bobsbeer]

Seems like a decent work around for juice sellers. It will be interesting to see how the likes of DarkStar interpret things. It certainly seems to me that the rules are aimed at pre made juices rather than at the DIY mixers. Maybe they didn't think we did DIY when they wrote the rules.

[cigeliquid]

Many e-liquid makers will offer splash and dash as a work round for e-liquid that fail the TPD

As far as DIY nicotine base or pre made e-liquids , if it is a "nicotine containing liquid" then it will be required to be sold/placed on the market in 10ml bottles with a max strength of 20mg

unfortunately the argument that if a "nicotine containing liquid" fails to meet the requirements on bottle size or mg strength or for that matter testing,labelling,length of dripper insert,reporting,
it then stands to reason it can be openly sold is not going to work.

[Bobsbeer]

I can see your argument cigeliquid, but not your logic. From what you are suggesting then ALL nicotine containing liquid, regardless of where in the supply chain it is, will have to be in 10ml bottles with only 20mg strength. Juice makers purchase their liquid in bulk at present, or I presume they do for economy of scale purposes. The manufacturer SELLS them the base ingredients. They then mix the recipe and bottle for retail sale into "refill containers". So by your logic it will have to be delivered to the juice maker in 10ml bottles. I feel sorry for the juice makers if they all follow those rules, and the cost will skyrocket. Decanting 10ml bottles is going to be a right royal pain in the rear for them. Somehow I can't see that happening, and by my reading of the regulations it doesn't need to.

The UK rules ONLY apply to nicotine containing liquid that is being produced or supplied to refill an ecig, ie the last stage in the process. What happens before that is not regulated. I mix my own juice, from 500ml/1lt bottles of the base ingredients, and put the resulting mixed juice in 10ml bottles. The 500ml or 1lt bottles are NOT refill containers at that point. It makes no difference if the base ingredients are in 500ml bottles or 1000lt IBC's, they are not 'Refill Containers' in my view, and the regulations only apply to refill containers.

[charliehorse]

Apr 18, 2016 9:24:42 GMT Bobsbeer said:

I can see your argument cigeliquid , but not your logic. From what you are suggesting then ALL nicotine containing liquid, regardless of where in the supply chain it is, will have to be in 10ml bottles with only 20mg strength. Juice makers purchase their liquid in bulk at present, or I presume they do for economy of scale purposes. The manufacturer SELLS them the base ingredients. They then mix the recipe and bottle for retail sale into "refill containers". So by your logic it will have to be delivered to the juice maker in 10ml bottles. I feel sorry for the juice makers if they all follow those rules, and the cost will skyrocket. Decanting 10ml bottles is going to be a right royal pain in the rear for them. Somehow I can't see that happening, and by my reading of the regulations it doesn't need to.

The UK rules ONLY apply to nicotine containing liquid that is being produced or supplied to refill an ecig, ie the last stage in the process. What happens before that is not regulated. I mix my own juice, from 500ml/1lt bottles of the base ingredients, and put the resulting mixed juice in 10ml bottles. The 500ml or 1lt bottles are NOT refill containers at that point. It makes no difference if the base ingredients are in 500ml bottles or 1000lt IBC's, they are not 'Refill Containers' in my view, and the regulations only apply to refill containers.

3. Member States shall ensure that:

(a) nicotine-containing liquid is only placed on the market in dedicated refill containers not exceeding a volume of

10 ml, in disposable electronic cigarettes or in single use cartridges and that the cartridges or tanks do not exceed a

volume of 2 ml;

Unfortunately, "placed on the market" might be the problem. Pre-made eliquid will be placed on the market, bulk nic base will be allowed in larger containers as it will be for manufacturers only and not placed on the market. ?????

I hope not as I don't have that much room in my freezer to start stock piling.

[Bobsbeer]

Placed on the market is just that. It means for sale, so will apply to anyone selling it. Manufacturer through to final retailer. However you are reading the TPD version rather than the UK version which is what we will have to follow. The wording is subtly different, which is what I was pointing out in the first post.

[cigeliquid]

Apr 18, 2016 13:13:02 GMT Bobsbeer said:

Placed on the market is just that. It means for sale, so will apply to anyone selling it. Manufacturer through to final retailer. However you are reading the TPD version rather than the UK version which is what we will have to follow. The wording is subtly different, which is what I was pointing out in the first post.

The full details of " placed on the market" can be found if you search google for ---- The 'Blue Guide' on the implementation of EU product rules 2016---
Section 2.3 page 19