Hmmm

[anon4]

Was thinking to myself why creams and vanillas turn darker than say fruits. I reckon it's because of the presence of AP. So what is happening? If it's reacting with nic what is it turning into? I have a strong hunch it's diacetyl and that's why all those yummy creamy juices taste so much better after a month or so. Have there been any proper studies on steeping yet?

[faren]

The short answer is simply no.

The long answer would be, unless you are making your liquids with yeast:-

Diacetyl is produced during fermentation as a byproduct of valine synthesis, when yeast produces α-acetolactate, which escapes the cell and is spontaneously decarboxylated into diacetyl. The yeast then absorbs the diacetyl, and reduces the ketone groups to form acetoin and 2,3-butanediol.

There would be no process biological or chemical taking place that would provide the necessary conditions for the formation of diacetyl. I suspect, as I have only witnessed the 'darkening' effect in liquids containing much higher concentrations of nicotene (18mg/ml compared to my usual 3mg/ml) that the darkening is part of the natural degredation of nicotene over time. This phenomenon is well documented within the vaping community and has been directly attributed to a natuaral yet unexplainable degrading of nicotene over time, causing it to gradually loose its potency and darken in colour. Although other factors may be at work, as some chemical based flavourings tend to react with each other in unexpected ways and I have seen organic vanillas darken significantly after steeping for long periods of time.

As I understand it, by for the largest contributing factor to diacetyl content in e-liquids are artificial flavours which, as a deliberately added component of their flavour signature contain chemical diacetyl. For example artificial popcorn, butter, strawberry flavours all contain/ed diacetyl to give a buttery taste and only due to the recent concerns of the vaping community have e-liquid companies been looking for alternatives that are completely diacetyl free.

Electronic cigarettes

A 2014 publication found that diacetyl was present in samples of many sweet-flavored electronic cigarette liquids, though at levels 100 times lower than that of tobacco smoke.[37] According to that research, diacetyl is approved for food use, but is associated with respiratory disease when inhaled. The study concluded that diacetyl is an avoidable risk for electronic cigarette liquid, and measures could be taken by the industry to eliminate its usage, without limiting availability of flavors. In 2015, another test of 51 purpose-selected liquids found diacetyl at trace levels or higher in 39 of the liquids.[38]

By far the largest body of research into the safety of flavours this side of the pond so far has been undertaken by FlavourArtUk, so if you have any questions in this area I would highly recommend those guys as a good place to start. John is a really top bloke and I'm sure he would be more than happy to help you address any concerns you may have in that area or at least point you in the right direction.

Hopefully I haven't overlooked anything and hopefully some other folk who know more than me can bring something to the table.

Also adding this link as the information seems coherent enough (Maillard Reaction - Colour and flavour) :-

forum.e-liquid-recipes.com/t/hidden-science-behind-normal-and-accelerated-e-liquid-steeping/21024

[Perpetua]

*-SARIN-* is our resident expert chemist on all things molecular  . . . . so it might be of interest to have a look through his past posts anon4.

allaboute-cigarettes.proboards.com/user/7822/recent

allaboute-cigarettes.proboards.com/thread/62208/chemical-guide?page=1&scrollTo=1072747

I just trot out this chart at the mention of Diacetyl . . . .

[jtc]

I just enjoy my juice now and don't worry
If it tastes good then I'm happy

[anon4]

Jun 15, 2016 8:22:10 GMT jtc said:

I just enjoy my juice now and don't worry
If it tastes good then I'm happy

I'm a thinker lol. A good read here so far :thumbup:

[jtc]

Yup I get that and questions do ponder
Just I don't worry too much about diacetyl anymore.
I just want tasty juice

[faren]

Jun 15, 2016 11:15:30 GMT jtc said:

Yup I get that and questions do ponder
Just I don't worry too much about diacetyl anymore.
I just want tasty juice

Provided you buy from a completely transparent vendor that you trust it really shouldn't be an issue.

[anon4]

We mix our own. I know at least one recipe of mine contains ap

[jtc]

Yup mix it up baby
It's the only way for me now

[anon4]

Jun 15, 2016 11:41:17 GMT jtc said:

Yup mix it up baby
It's the only way for me now

Same so cheap. If I do buy juice its for clone attempts

[jtc]

I never buy so called premium juice
Never have
I went from hangsen to diy and never looked back
And one of the best things is when people tell me my juice is better than they're buying from shops

[anon4]

Jun 15, 2016 23:00:13 GMT jtc said:

I never buy so called premium juice
Never have
I went from hangsen to diy and never looked back
And one of the best things is when people tell me my juice is better than they're buying from shops

I don't buy it either but a mate does, I've been contemplating buying the odd one to clone it so he can buy off me instead (already does). Shame I'll have to stop that soon, or sell 0 nic for people to add their own. Wish I started diy years ago would have started a business for sure, not worth the fuss now

[faren]

Jun 16, 2016 1:33:13 GMT anon4 said:

Jun 15, 2016 23:00:13 GMT jtc said:

I never buy so called premium juice
Never have
I went from hangsen to diy and never looked back
And one of the best things is when people tell me my juice is better than they're buying from shops

I don't buy it either but a mate does, I've been contemplating buying the odd one to clone it so he can buy off me instead (already does). Shame I'll have to stop that soon, or sell 0 nic for people to add their own. Wish I started diy years ago would have started a business for sure, not worth the fuss now

Some of us have been doing this for years mate. If you think smoking cigarettes is a better option, then I'm going to suggest you do that instead.

[Greg]

Jun 16, 2016 2:15:16 GMT faren said:

Jun 16, 2016 1:33:13 GMT anon4 said:

I don't buy it either but a mate does, I've been contemplating buying the odd one to clone it so he can buy off me instead (already does). Shame I'll have to stop that soon, or sell 0 nic for people to add their own. Wish I started diy years ago would have started a business for sure, not worth the fuss now

Some of us have been doing this for years mate. If you think smoking cigarettes is a better option, then I'm going to suggest you do that instead.

Well I'm going to suggest that's a foolish suggestion !

[Perpetua]

Jun 15, 2016 23:00:13 GMT jtc said:

I never buy so called premium juice
Never have
I went from hangsen to diy and never looked back
And one of the best things is when people tell me my juice is better than they're buying from shops

Me neither! Largely because when I started vaping/DIY ' Premium ' eliquid didn't exist . . . . and the occasional ones I have bought since, just to check I''m not missing out, have in the main been quite disappointing compared to what I can make myself.

Now with the lovely selection of oneshot/standalone concentrates there's available it makes it even simpler to achieve successful results if you can't be bothered or have time for the creation process.