hifistud
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Post by hifistud on Jan 13, 2013 13:13:43 GMT
Until e-cigs, "quit" meant precisely "no nicotine" - total abstinence (hence "quit or die"). Only since folks have stopped using lit tobacco and switched to e-cigs have they taken what was a well understood term (there was never a doubt - if you'd quit, you'd quit - totally nicotine abstinent) and used it in a way that the powers that be did not understand - they have always taken it that folks were using e-cigs to "quit" (in the old terminology) and hence the medicinalisation they're trying to achieve.
This is why I've always been totally against "quit kit" vendors - they've made life very difficult, as we're now experiencing.
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hifistud
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Post by hifistud on Jan 13, 2013 12:06:53 GMT
and I have quit - despite there being no "evidence" people can quit.... Apparently not. As I discovered speaking to Clive Bates (who was formerly the Director of ASH) on Wednesday's VT Talk, the word "Quit" to Tobacco Controllers (and health departments, and EU folks) means "To become completely Nicotine Abstinent". If you have not become nicotine abstinent, you have not quit. Now, quite what pigeonhole that puts (the generic) you in, I have no clue. If we accept that it's burning of tobacco which makes smoking "smoking" (how I wish there'd been another term for it) and thus this "vaping" word has some traction, it seems apparent that none of the powers that be are ready to accept that "vaping" isn't "smoking". And, to a degree, they're not wrong. You haven't actually quit the habit, you've merely changed the substrate to do exactly what it was you used to do only in a much less risky way. What we have to do is educate these people to understand that this is actually a good thing(which it patently is) and that they need to change their vocabulary to recognise THR and how it actually works, and also understand that, while e-cigs exist, there's a large proportion of nicotine users that would never go back to fags, but that if e-cigs are taken away, then all e-cig users will revert to smoking. (please note the emphasis). Patently, they don't want that...
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hifistud
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Post by hifistud on Jan 13, 2013 11:53:12 GMT
I have taken to pointing MEPs and MPs at both Clive Bates's blog and Michael Siegel's - you might also point them at Carl Phillips's stuff as well. Response from one of the researchers attached to an MEP was that they were damned good resources as not only does Michael point out the legislation, but analyses it from a Tobacco Controller's viewpoint, and seems always to come down in favour of e-cigs.
If a particular MEP seems intransigent, then a more targeted approach looking at specific posts by Siegel might be a decent tactic. Providing more and more information can never be a bad thing.
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hifistud
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Post by hifistud on Jan 13, 2013 11:43:59 GMT
Wouldn't worry me if they banned vaping as-long as they ban smoking aswell. If regulations are introduced and/or e-cig prices increase i will quit anyway. In which case, they win and we lose. But, rest assured, smoking will never be banned.
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Post by hifistud on Jan 13, 2013 11:41:49 GMT
Ace - let us know what transpires, please - it'll be good to keep a sort of tally on which MEP is saying what, and so on.
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Post by hifistud on Jan 13, 2013 0:08:19 GMT
It's a brilliant letter, and as applicable to MPs as MEPs - bear in mind the Council of Ministers has input into all of this, and we send (off the top of my head ) three of our lot to that... Plus Jeremy Hunt has input. Just add a line asking your MP to represent your views to the re3levant departments and forward their reply to you.
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Post by hifistud on Jan 12, 2013 11:56:36 GMT
The idea is to give the local press the kind of headlines that they know will sell papers, have people listening to radio shows and so on. Both Clive Bates and Michael Siegel have nice little soundbites (quotes) which say as much - that this proposal will ultimately be the cause of hundreds of thousands of people dying prematurely if it goes through - so using one of those just might get a lot of publicity. And, let's face it, it's true, and no MP/MEP/MSP is going to want to be branded a killer (I'd stop short of murderer in the first instance).
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Post by hifistud on Jan 12, 2013 0:40:13 GMT
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hifistud
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Post by hifistud on Jan 11, 2013 23:59:58 GMT
There aren't any - it's either ideological or due to ignorance. As Clive Bates has said in his guide, we need to keep everything on point and ask for specific action - and keep on asking for it. The more of their time we take up, the more they have to listen to us and the more they become convinced that votes may be affected. So, more hands to the pump. We're effectively setting up a mass lobbying group here, and it needs as many folks to get involved as is humanly possible.
It's also worth remembering that it's an innate reaction of the left to control, the right to support a free market, and the centre to actually weigh the pros and cons. We have to present a compelling case to parties of the left in order to persuade a large enough number that they need to adopt a centre ground policy on it to make a difference.
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Post by hifistud on Jan 11, 2013 23:57:23 GMT
It is quite stage managed, it's true to say, and tends to cover the hot topics of the week that week. It may well be that it's close to time to make this a hot topic - second week in february would be good timing, for instance.
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Post by hifistud on Jan 11, 2013 23:49:45 GMT
I would refer them to www.clivebates.com and tobaccoanalysis.blogspot.co.uk/ with an explanation that Clive Bates is the former Director of ASH and he is convinced the proposals are completely wrong, and that Professor Siegel has decades of experience in the forefront of tobacco control and he also believes that the proposals are dangerous to the health of European e-cig users. I would then request a reply asking the recipient to assure that they will represent your opinion that both of the above mentioned have it right and that the TPD should not be so amended or revised, and that, should they disagree, then you would like an explanation as to why. And then I'd be asking everyone else in their constituency to do likewise, and write to the local press telling them that their local MEP/MP/MSP supports the premature deaths of hundred of thousands of smokers by their unwillingness to quash this idiotic prohibitionist agenda. That reply of mine above - where I'm preaching to the converted - is also useful as an informative piece that might be included in any correspondence - suitably paraphrased, naturally. It seems there is a desperate ned to educate our representatives. I'm forming the notion that they think we all use disposables that are, like normal ciggies, a kind of one use thing - hence this outrage at there being 48mg of nicotine in one (as they see it) fag's worth of e-cig. We know it's not - but do they? This is why I think it's important to arrange face to face meetings, so that you can show and tell, educate them, and show that we're not messing about with hazardous stuff in normal use.
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hifistud
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Post by hifistud on Jan 11, 2013 23:39:22 GMT
The point is, there's nothing about nicotine that's anywhere near as nasty as the carcinogens in lit tobacco. Just the same as there's nothing particularly nasty about caffeine in the amounts normal folks imbibe - the two substances are analogous to a large degree. To that degree the "think of the children" argument is moot - just as we don't worry about kids and coffee, there's no need to worry about kids and nicotine as long as e-cigs exist. Patently, if e-cigs satisfy, then there's no real likelihood of them leading to the use of lit tobacco. Why would they? If a "numpty" does happen to try one with some nic in it, it's not going to cause them any harm - and my feeling is that far too few folks are aware of this. e-cigs are patently not "gateway sticks" to traditional cigarettes, and, quite honestly, anyone suggesting that they are is completely unaware that no youngster will go for a Marlbro if there's a tasty option like RY5 kicking about. I must admit, I don't buy the whole "gateway" argument. I just hope you are right about the eshisha. Even if somebody did actually go from an eshisha stick to a skycig or something, you can't ban eshisha. That would be like saying because kids used to drink alcopops that lemonade was a dangerous "gateway" to hooch.
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Post by hifistud on Jan 11, 2013 20:54:58 GMT
Not even remotely. Far too many folks equate Nicotine with "bad". It isn't. Had we got nicotine in a large mug with a frothy top and cinnamon sprinkles on it, nobody would ever have batted an eyelid. The harm is not the nicotine, but the substrate, and that substrate is missing from e-cigs (and e-shisha)
If a "numpty" does happen to try one with some nic in it, it's not going to cause them any harm - and my feeling is that far too few folks are aware of this. e-cigs are patently not "gateway sticks" to traditional cigarettes, and, quite honestly, anyone suggesting that they are is completely unaware that no youngster will go for a Marlbro if there's a tasty option like RY5 kicking about.
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Post by hifistud on Jan 11, 2013 19:49:20 GMT
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Post by hifistud on Jan 11, 2013 10:40:13 GMT
I meant to ask is it worth a group of us getting tickets for question time and trying to get it covered on there,? won't do much re campaigning but might bring it to a few more people's notice? Anything at all which gets our side of the argument publicity is a good thing - go for it, I'd say!! [redacted]
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