Vendor responsibility

[camperman]

Just a for instance here but what if you bought a mod from one vendor batteries from another and atomisers from someone else and something happened, who would the blame lie with ?
Vaping is still very much in it's experimental stage and you only have to read through the forums to see the how toos with people trying different set ups with various batteries and atomisers ect on various mods and as their is no industry standard and very little quality control especially in china were 99% of the equipment is made how can it all be policed ?

[collie2011]

Hmm, under those circumstances i'd assume the device would have to be inspected by an independent expert to see which component failed and who the liability lies with, if the liability lies with more than one part then a percentage of liability would be applied and each manufacturer would be liable for that percentage of the damages awarded.

[hifistud]

Jun 28, 2011 4:57:34 GMT VE Jason said:

The reason why suppliers will be reluctant to pass comment on the subject is the unfortunate claim mentality of some people (not aiming that at anyone here).

Some (many) claims are what I'd class as frivolous - just seeing what you can get away with, but there are some which are genuine - I'd be a bit upset, for instance, if I lost a hand to a thermal runaway in a device...

Another thing to keep in mind is if you want to buy a mod from one of the many excellent modders we have here, you can expect to pay say £30 for the mod, as is.

If you want it fully compliant and with all necessary insurances etc, no problem, but expect to pay £70-£80 for the exact same mod.

I have no problem with price. I have always expected to pay the proper price for proper kit, less whatever discount I can haggle without sending the seller bankrupt. Cutting corners to keep prices down can be dangerous...

Also, liabilty insurance is quite easy to obtain, but if the product being sold is not compliant, do you think the insurers would pay out?

I know they won't. My own liability insurance(s) in the game I was in carried lots of gotchas, to the extent that we had policies for this, policies for that, and did full risk assessments every time we went to a new venue - exactly the kind of stuff we always did do, but, latterly, more formally - on paper and signed off, as opposed to simply discussing it with the interested parties. It's part of business these days.

I think this is more about adults making their own decisions about what to purchase/not purchase and thats the way it should be IMO.

It is until someone suffers a frightful mishap as a result of poor quality control or shoddy risk assessment. I'm as against State nannying as anyone - more so than most, as it happens, and I'm a great believer in self-determination and self-reliance, BUT, if someone loses a hand to a preventable mishap, and it's the fault of the device, then there's a real claim.
Most folk aren't qualified to assess whether a particular device is intrinsically safe or if it has design flaws, but the maker, frankly, should be all over it. And yet we've seen some devices that were just asking to fire in the pocket (and always did), devices that reacted to the normal level of sound in a club and fired at will, devices that shed their juice at the drop of a hat in a pocket and so on. They're patently flawed. And patently would not pass muster in CE or other testing - yet they often are sold by vendors who have no liability insurers, and who might even brand them as their own.[/quote]

However, I also believe a supplier should test products before putting them on sale, as far as reasonably practical.

100% agree, even if it's to safeguard their own pockets.

[camperman]

I'm glad you worked that one out collie as I wouldn't have had a clue

Some of the older ones out their must remember the old advert on tv years ago about mixing cross ply tyres with radial tyres on their cars ? Not much barring to the thread but just a thought as people do try using different pieces of equipment that will fit but isn't meant to be used with certain mods, take a small 510 battery for instance I'm no expert with these batteries as I've never owned one but i do know that a while ago I read that one exploded as the wrong charger was being used to charge it even though it did fit as the guy was using the stronger tornado charger as his 510 charger had broken.
I think when it all becomes official their will be a better industry standard which will all benefit from ofcourse though at a price.

[safercigs]

before i sell any product i keep one back and fully test it before it goes on my website and ill give you an example a while ago i reveived a order of 20 Ego Tanks but on testing found issues with them which made me return them back to the supplier and had them changed. Now my supplyer had no problem in sorting this out for me but had i sold these then my customers whould have had a product that would have leaked all its liquid and quite fast also with the carts that was supplyed they would have had fluid in the mouth.

Testing before especially a new product is essential.

[VE Jason]

Unfortunately Dave, your view on price is not shared by everybody, otherwise the Chinese market would not exist.

If I mentioned risk assessment to some of the suppliers they would probably ship me a new product and call it 'Risk Assessment MKI'.

Supplier testing is definately a good thing but also has its limitations on some products.

How many batteries out of each batch do you want me to test and how long for?

How long do you want me to fire your atty for before selling it to you?

Those questions aren't aimed at you Dave by the way, I'm just typing out loud

[hifistud]

The crossply/radial thing was a very real thing, yes!! And I well remember it. But, as my mum said at the time, how the hell would she know which was what? She wouldn't - and I'm not all that sure my dad did, either. The warnings were all well and good if you were qualified to know the difference.

These days, of course, you can't get it wrong. Or can you? I'm quite fortunate in that there's a very small number of tyres that will fit my car - and by very small I mean five - and they all are markedly different, so even this half-blind numpty can see which is what, and a tyre fitting company would, you would imagine, certainly spot which type were fitted to the vehicle.
And yet, one place in south Yorkshire decided that it was acceptable to fit three new tyres to my wife's car, leaving one fitted that had maybe 30k miles on it and was a different tread pattern to the new ones. Would I have taken that chance? No, I wouldn't. And to my way of thinking, neither should they. SWMBO would simply take their word for it - she's not a mechanic, neither does she normally argue with an "expert" in the field. Suffice it to say I got the odd tyre changed out for her as soon as she got home. Had she suffered a mishap on the road back, trust me, I'd have sued the tyre fitting company for every penny they had.
Now, translate that lot to e-cigs - how many of us are qualified to judge whether a given design carries with it inherent dangers - more especially "sealed" units with the battery packs permanently wired and hidden from easy view?

[collie2011]

Testing is definitely a good practice before selling but won't always catch potential problems. Look at most pieces of new technology that come to the market. Until they are extensively tested by the mass market the real issues don't come to light. This happens to the best manufacturers and developers, look at apple/microsoft and the amount of patches they have to release once a product comes to market. Even with medicines they do extensive medical trials on them but real issues are usually only picked up once they are readily available.

Most of the chargers for the higher capacity 510 batteries do state not to use them for standard 510 batteries as they can cause them to blow up.

[hifistud]

Jun 28, 2011 10:10:51 GMT VE Jason said:

Unfortunately Dave, your view on price is not shared by everybody, otherwise the Chinese market would not exist.

My views are pretty well known, I'd imagine. I refuse point blank to buy from abroad items that can be purchased from UK vendors, and I understand that a UK vendor has price constraints that foreign businesses may not have - like VAT and import duty, for instance. That said, I'll pay a fair price. While I've never been scared of the word profit, and fully understand the need to generate reserves and growth capital, profiteering goes against the grain.
I'm actually a bit wary of buying too cheap (that bleedin' 'orrible PaddyPuff juice is a case in point!)

If I mentioned risk assessment to some of the suppliers they would probably ship me a new product and call it 'Risk Assessment MKI'.

Supplier testing is definately a good thing but also has its limitations on some products.

How many batteries out of each batch do you want me to test and how long for?

How long do you want me to fire your atty for before selling it to you?

Those questions aren't aimed at you Dave by the way, I'm just typing out loud

I'd gathered!! But yeah, the points are well made. I'd budget 2% of stocks for testing - and make it perfectly clear in my literature that that was what I did, so that potential customers would know what the sample level was and why it was done.

[VE Jason]

A good suggestion in return, thanks.

A large part of it, with regard to run of the mill faulty items (not life threatening defects) is I find as much to do with how a supplier handles the problem once highlighted.

Dealing with it and not just ignoring it, is what ultimately will go a long way towards improving standards.

If the manufacturers don't know about it, they will do nothing about it.

[camperman]

I get what your saying dave you have to be an expert in every field these days to not get ripped off.
Jason has a really good point in testing s I test all my equipment to the best of my ability and for instance the BW which I tested for two weeks solid before I sold any units but because of the amount of problems decided to stop selling it for the safety aspect.
Incidentally Im still using my original BW at work and it's never once played up but I would rather be safer than sorry and couldn't live with myself if something happened with one.

[thescot]

If an e-cig vendor sells a product with a disclaimer telling buyers NOT to use dual coils for an example and the user either doesn't read it or ignores it then who is liable if an incident arises from the use of dual coils on the vendors product?

[hifistud]

Jun 28, 2011 10:31:44 GMT @thescot said:

If an e-cig vendor sells a product with a disclaimer telling buyers NOT to use dual coils for an example and the user either doesn't read it or ignores it then who is liable if an incident arises from the use of dual coils on the vendors product?

Not the vendor, is the simple answer - it's a bit like putting petrol in a diesel car - you're told not to. If you do, the car dies. Your problem!

[collie2011]

That's where it would get tricky @thescot. Technically the vendor has covered their bum by saying that and it is the fault of the consumer for not reading it, the same as if you tick, I agree to the terms and conditions without actually reading them you are still bound by them. Ignorance of the law is no defence in this country. But it could be questioned why a vendor was selling a product that they knew could potentially be dangerous if used with the dual coils or a LR atty for example. Solicitors are sneaky buggers and will try any loophole or angle they can to win a case and ultimately get paid.

[thescot]

I see that Sean (pinhead) has just stated that he will no longer be making mods for sale. Hope the liability talk has not scared him off from modding stuff for sale?