Vendor responsibility

[james481538]

OK out of interest I have looked into this today.
With all the threads about products failing and the potential of possible personal injury.

I work in a industry where health and safety are paramount.
And getting approval to work is a right bugger.
So I posed the question to a few colleagues about expectations from a supplier and also to our health and safety director who is interested in ecigs.

The findings were quite interesting.
The manufacturer should have product liability insurance.
The vendor should also carry public liability insurance.
So if a mod blew your hand off(for example) you would claim from the vendor who in turn would claim from the manufacturer.

Now with most of these products coming from China I highly doubt that they have this insurance in place.
So it would fall directly in the lap of the vendor who you would have hoped have taken the correct insurance as part of the vendor set up process.
Who would have the battle to retrospectively claim from the manufacturer if they are uninsured.

So knocking a mod that is not up to scratch is all well and good.
But we need to think what if?
Would my vendor be covered if I lost a hand due to a blowing battery and could not work again.
Now I'm thinking vendor protection not knocking the UK vendors in any way.

The same could be said for an atty burning your lip off.
Or a carto breaking in your pocket with a few ml of juice soaking in your leg and making you ill.
Which did happen to me, but I'm not looking to sue anyone, lol

With all the things floating about ATM about not quitting etc.
Surely the focus should be about making the industry safe.
I know ECITA are around but how do they manage new suppliers?
They have no jurisdiction other than it's membership. If I'm wrong I stand corrected.

The same could be said for one off mods we buy.
Again thinking protection and not knocking the modders out there.
But in my head (I suppose due to my job it's drummed in, lol)
If you make mods and do not have the protection and something goes wrong you could loose alot.

I know we all buy on impulse and the next great thing is good to have.

But who protects me and how do I know I'm protected.
Do we need some sort of vendor award category?

[Perpetua]

It's an interesting post James, I'll look forward to the discussion that I'm sure will ensue.

I do know that ECITA and ECCA are working on making the Ecig industry as safe as possible for Vapers . . .

Although we buy so much these days from China, that has the potential to be dangerous, look at some of the toys that have been found to be unsafe imported from there, so I guess that's also a larger issue question as well . . .

[vereybowring]

As a fairly new vaper and now modder I think about these issues alot.
I don't have insurance so if somebody harms themselves using one of my devices then I would be liable and could be taken to court.

I know that and as a person who was a health and safety officer for many years I try to make sure my devices are as safe as I can make them with my un-professional skills.

If I do get sued by someone I will go to jail as I have no money to pay damages - this is not going to stop me making devices because I enjoy it and like to see happy people using my works. So I will play customer roulette as a consequence.

I try to give people decent levels of advice on the device they are purchasing and do plan to formalise that a bit more with product sheets, but my health issues don't help with that sort of task - I do better with physical tasks at the moment like building PV equipment.
Also when I do eventually start making more volume I am going to have to have a "buy and use at you own risk disclaimer" which doesn't protect me really but is a small leg to stand on.

I really despair the litigious nature of modern culture, I agree consumers should have protection against faulty equipment but it would help if there were less darwin award nominees potentially buying stuff and hurting themselves because they are daft and don't know how to be safe in themselves.

[Perpetua]

Good post Verey . . . I also despair of the compensation culture that seems to exist these days, there has to come a point when the user themselves needs to take some responsibility for their usage of a device . . .

[james481538]

Verey I do agree mate as I am for the UK market here.
It's all about how do we protect out industry.
And not knocking the individual.

And you have clearly at least thought about the consequences of selling.

Out of interest if a set of standards was applied how would that effect you and if cost was involved to be compliant?
Do we need some form of support to help new ventures and how do we fund that?

I know there are dodgy items for sale all over ebay, lol
But if we are to appear clean cut to improve the image I think we need some sort of standard

The claim culture it here and that is why I highlight the fact.
It is not right but it is here.

[hissie]

Well I just think about all the folk who are now less likely to end up with smoking related illnesses.

Analog suppliers & manufacturers ain't worried about the damage they are doing to peoples' insides, so e-cig manufacturers & vendors have little to be concerned about.

I guess most people accept that when inhaling hot smoke, or using e-cigs & accessories that there is a potential risk involved. However, I'm happier to risk vaping than smoking.

[vereybowring]

As things stand at the moment for me to be a "safe" seller/modder whatever the following applies.

For starters I would need to be certified/qualified in electronics in some way which means a college/university course.
I would also need the liability insurance you mentioned.
Each model I make would need full product testing to get BS certified - that would cost a small fortune as even one component change means you need a new certificate.

All that adds up to quite a bit of money that small builders and vendors just can't afford and stay competitive with the big operators. As you say the chinese factories are really cheap and don't care about safety as they should - you can't compete with profit driven businesses.

As the laws stand currently there is actually no place for a small builder in the UK, the first court case wipes them out, and small vendors aren't much better off either.

[james481538]

I do understand that Hissie.
The problem the UK vape industry faces is safety.
We are under the microscope not cig sellers.

Yes they are proven to cause cancer etc.
But what is the potential for one to blow up in your face.
There are not so many variants of the cig.
Tobacco a filter and some paper. Or a mod version, roll your own.
Of stick it in a wood bowl and light it.

I know this has the potential to go down hill fast but we do need to distance from the cig market and risks they are totally different.
One has the potential of being banned.

Also let's not forget that makers of lighters to light tobacco have been sued for defective products blowing up.

I'm not talking a degree in mod construction mate.
But what standard need to be applied and who vets them.
In other words who can help folks like you be compliant.
If there is a compliance.
Or are we just to assume we all take the risk ourself.
If this is the case no one is broadcasting the fact.

[hissie]

Are you a vendor James, or do you have some other relation to e-cigs?

[james481538]

No don't know why you would think that TBH.
I have just raised a question I have never seen raised before.

I have seen many questions raised about the industry but none about user protection hence the thread.

If we are to be under threat as I see many posts point to.
Surely this would be part of the final decision.

We would be foolish to over look this possible issue.

[camperman]

i think if/when it ever went properly mainstream small vendors/modders like myself would fall by the wayside tangled in rules regulations and red tape.
as it is now a lot of us are just making hay whilst the sun shines and enjoying modding and selling as our hobby but for how long as at the moment we are still in a tiny minority in what we do but as an example i have personally converted around 30 people familly/friends/ and more i suspect who have bought from my website so if everyone is doing that which i suspect they do it will be sooner rather than later.

[hissie]

Hmm just wondered.

[safercigs]

as a small business i have and continue to run my business as a business in that i will conform to all requirements of law to ensure public data and safety. PLI for uk well that a problem child right there i have serched for liability insurance for a electronic cigarette vendor and only 3 come up 2 are based in the USA and do not cover UK with permiums starting at $12000 with easy payment terms.

Gamucci was the other listed one so that was no good. i then spent a long time looking and could find none what so ever the big boys of the insurance world have no listings for our products

i have noticed not many suppliers have responded to this post but if any can point me in the right direction i would be happy to check it out

also looking at the ECITA i could not see any advice or information relating to PLI

i am just being honest and i want to run my business as best as i can but if you simply can not find the correct information to protect both the customer and your self what are you to do.

fantastic thread and i will look forward to reading more as peeps respond

[vereybowring]

Jun 27, 2011 21:47:39 GMT james481538 said:

No don't know why you would think that TBH.
I have just raised a question I have never seen raised before.

I have seen many questions raised about the industry but none about user protection hence the thread.

If we are to be under threat as I see many posts point to.
Surely this would be part of the final decision.

We would be foolish to over look this possible issue.

This is one reason ECCA UK has been set up, to fight for your rights as an e cig user in the UK, check out the website and join up if you haven't already.
Product safety is one concern the association has - if you want your voice to be heard talk to ECCA UK, Lee a user here is the forum representative on the ECCA UK committee and can talk to you further if you require.

[james481538]

Jun 27, 2011 22:25:56 GMT safercigs said:

as a small business i have and continue to run my business as a business in that i will conform to all requirements of law to ensure public data and safety. PLI for uk well that a problem child right there i have serched for liability insurance for a electronic cigarette vendor and only 3 come up 2 are based in the USA and do not cover UK with permiums starting at $12000 with easy payment terms.

Gamucci was the other listed one so that was no good. i then spent a long time looking and could find none what so ever the big boys of the insurance world have no listings for our products

i have noticed not many suppliers have responded to this post but if any can point me in the right direction i would be happy to check it out

also looking at the ECITA i could not see any advice or information relating to PLI

i am just being honest and i want to run my business as best as i can but if you simply can not find the correct information to protect both the customer and your self what are you to do.

fantastic thread and i will look forward to reading more as peeps respond

Cheers for being the 1st vendor to respond.
And please note I'm not trying to be an awkward git or have any other motive, I'm quite surprised at that TBH ???
Just wanting to form an open debate.

Just trying to point out what I see as the only floor in the ecig industry as a customer, thats all.
It is good to see that a vendor and well respected modder have at least thought about the liability issue.

Now maybe if there is no category for insurance the one thing ECITA should be doing is sourcing an insurance source for it's members?

And to pose another question should ECCA be putting on the pressure to get this in place?

I suppose the other question is as a customer do actually want protecting?