NHS e mail and my reply

[Queenie Bee]

Alvo forgive me I have a terrible headache is your last thread in response to hifi or mine? just wondered before I reply

[alvoram]

Sorry queenie, was in response to hifi, was getting round to yours

I agree with everything you say queenie, you have a similar point of view to me. I don't think the fact you carry on taking onboard nicotine is an issue at all, as long as you have stopped smoking at the end of the day. Then hopefully you have stopped taking onboard all those chemicals, carcinogens, tar, carbon monoxide and so on associated with smoke. Quitting smoking, and quitting nicotine are 2 very different things.

[Queenie Bee]

Apr 13, 2012 11:44:09 GMT alvoram said:

Sorry queenie, was in response to hifi, was getting round to yours

I agree with everything you say queenie, you have a similar point of view to me. I don't think the fact you carry on taking onboard nicotine is an issue at all, as long as you have stopped smoking at the end of the day. Then hopefully you have stopped taking onboard all those chemicals, carcinogens, tar, carbon monoxide and so on associated with smoke. Quitting smoking, and quitting nicotine are 2 very different things.

I thought so Alvo glad my Brain is still processing correctly. I am defiantly with you on this I have no issues with my nicotine addiction I am sure with time and tweaking with the juice I will be able to wean my self off over time if I wish! Like you say it's all the other rubbish in cigs that causes the problems. 2 months on and I am sure my body is still processing all nasties hence the evil headache 19 years of smoking I will be full of them !

[hifistud]

Apr 13, 2012 11:24:14 GMT alvoram said:

Wow you need sleep, lol....

No smoking cessation means smoking cessation, you can't change the meaning of a term to suit your end of a debate. Even so I said it was a smoking cessation device, just like nicotine gum, inhalers, patches etc. People often carry on using these devices, way past the recommended amount of time, doesn't stop them being classed as smoking cessation devices.

Perhaps you need to refer to the World Health Organisation's website, where they refer to the "disease of nicotine addiction" and define "quit" to mean complete abstinence from nicotine - a view subscribed to by governments worldwide. I'm not changing any definitions.

All currently licensed NRT is specifically licensed to wean the smoker off nicotine dependence, originally by firstly breaking the hand to mouth habit, although that is now acknowledged as not necessary for licensing to proceed.

E-juice is not regulated at all, it's packaging is, there is nothing to stop me buying the ingredients now, mixing my own juice, and selling it to people, so long as it has all the right markings on the packaging. That is not a regulated product.

Try flogging 100mg juice - it's regulated under the General Products classification - Katherine Devlin can give you chapter and verse.

The same goes for mods, nothing stops me building a mod now, and selling it, no matter how safe it may or may not be. This also explains my reasoning behind number 2, and why I say it's a matter of trust. Clearly there are large manufacturers, and small ones, I am not going to name names, because personally, I actually trust most of them. But there is a huge difference between a big manufacturer in china, or the UK for that matter, and say, me, making and selling juice, anyone who purchased my juice would be putting trust in me.

Again, CE marking rules apply - and it's down to the manufacturers to decide whether or not their product falls within the regulations and guidelines for mods.

Your response to it being more widely accepted seems to assume that they will be white sticks with red led's if licensed, so not sure what to say to that to be honest. But whatever they are, if they were licensed, everybody would know what they were, which would reduce cases of people mistaking them for cigarettes. Although personally I don't think they'll go for the red led white stick combo.... I could be wrong.

CN Creative - Intellicig - has its Nicadex already on the stocks for pending Marketing Authorisation. It is, in essence, an M401 e-cig which CNC claims to assemble in the UK. In their current literature, it's a very light blue, with a red LED end, and is as looky-likey as they come with actually being a white battery, although their EVO batteries are a perfect fit (hardly surprising, as they're exactly the same units) and they're pure white. It's highly unlikely that the MA will specify the colour of the battery, as the technology is based around the atomiser, switch and liquid - so fawn cart, white battery (or just off-white battery) in cylindrical format is where it will be. This isn't guesswork, by the way.

There are elderly and disabled people (and jobless people, but we wont go there) out there, on benefits, who currently smoke cheap rolling tobacco, imports, which can be picked up for less than a fiver for 50g, which lasts most smokers longer than a week, even at your very generous £1 a day, that would make ecigs considerably more expensive. Prescriptions are free for most of this group of people. Just as there are for people like us, who work minimum wage jobs, and are entitled to NHS tax credit exemption certificates

Indeed so, but you assume that the doctors will prescribe an adequate sufficiency of materials to satisfy the tyro e-cig user. My hunch is that they won't, in the same way as they don't adequately address viagra and ciallis prescriptions. Apparently, for instance, once a week's more than plenty for a 55 year old bloke. And then they wonder why certain Indian companies' websites get massive amounts of traffic. And, with the best will in the world, if folks are buying their smoking materials on the black market, illegally, how much sway would anyone expect that to have with government or health authorities?

As you pointed out yourself, nicotine is classed as harmless. Just like earlier on, your stating that quitting smoking and quitting nicotine are the same thing. They are not the same thing. I have quit smoking, I no longer inhale smoke, and all it's nasty contents, I do however still inhale nicotine, it's that simple.

With respect, the WHO does not agree with you. You have not been cured of the disease of nicotine addiction, in their eyes. Yeah, I know, it's horsefeathers, but that's what we're dealing with (and some of us have been for the last three years). To those people, we are patients who have a mental condition which needs to be cured. And, again, I'm sorry to have to inform them that I am most certainly not a patient, insofar as my use of nicotine is concerned.
see www.who.int/tobacco/resources/publications/en/intro_chapter3.pdf especially from peg 15 onwards...
It is recreational, as is caffeine and alcohol - medicalisation is patently NOT the answer - it will do much more harm than good.

[Phoenix .]

Apr 13, 2012 0:11:06 GMT alvoram said:

Well they are clearly being used as cessation devices by many, and IMO that makes them so, whether they're currently licensed as such or not.

there are just as many reason why it would be a good thing IMO, which is why I am not sure what to think.

1. As I said, it would help more people, by helping those unwilling to trust an unlicensed, unregulated product. And despite what you may think about it not being a cessation device, IMO if a product can save lives, the more it can save, the better.

2. It would mean quality is assured. At the minute whenever we buy liquid, we are putting our trust in the mixer, we don't know what safety procedures they have in place, or what is actually going into the product, as the industry is unregulated. I must make it clear however, that I trust most UK suppliers out there at the minute, but that may not always be the case, and quite rightly so.

3. It would be more widely accepted, I've not heard of any pub chains banning nicorette inhalers, for example.

4. It would be available on prescription. There are people out there who smoke cheap tobacco, that can't afford Ecigs, if they were available on prescription, most people who fall into this bracket would have access to them free of charge.

Also, I could be wrong about this, but I believe it's just prescription only medications (schedule 4i and below) that you can't import without a license, no other NRT falls into this category, so I have no reason to believe Ecigs would either, meaning you could still buy them from elsewhere if you chose to.

I, like many others, started vaping out of curiosity, and to see if I could cut down, but ended up quitting as it was so easy, as I said before, anything that could help other smokers realise the same is only a good thing IMO. I know I'm probably on my own here, and I have my hard hat on

No, I am with you alvo all the way

[Phoenix .]

Apr 13, 2012 15:48:19 GMT hifistud said:

Apr 13, 2012 11:24:14 GMT alvoram said:

Wow you need sleep, lol....

No smoking cessation means smoking cessation, you can't change the meaning of a term to suit your end of a debate. Even so I said it was a smoking cessation device, just like nicotine gum, inhalers, patches etc. People often carry on using these devices, way past the recommended amount of time, doesn't stop them being classed as smoking cessation devices.

Perhaps you need to refer to the World Health Organisation's website, where they refer to the "disease of nicotine addiction" and define "quit" to mean complete abstinence from nicotine - a view subscribed to by governments worldwide. I'm not changing any definitions.

All currently licensed NRT is specifically licensed to wean the smoker off nicotine dependence, originally by firstly breaking the hand to mouth habit, although that is now acknowledged as not necessary for licensing to proceed.



Try flogging 100mg juice - it's regulated under the General Products classification - Katherine Devlin can give you chapter and verse.



Again, CE marking rules apply - and it's down to the manufacturers to decide whether or not their product falls within the regulations and guidelines for mods.


CN Creative - Intellicig - has its Nicadex already on the stocks for pending Marketing Authorisation. It is, in essence, an M401 e-cig which CNC claims to assemble in the UK. In their current literature, it's a very light blue, with a red LED end, and is as looky-likey as they come with actually being a white battery, although their EVO batteries are a perfect fit (hardly surprising, as they're exactly the same units) and they're pure white. It's highly unlikely that the MA will specify the colour of the battery, as the technology is based around the atomiser, switch and liquid - so fawn cart, white battery (or just off-white battery) in cylindrical format is where it will be. This isn't guesswork, by the way.

Indeed so, but you assume that the doctors will prescribe an adequate sufficiency of materials to satisfy the tyro e-cig user. My hunch is that they won't, in the same way as they don't adequately address viagra and ciallis prescriptions. Apparently, for instance, once a week's more than plenty for a 55 year old bloke. And then they wonder why certain Indian companies' websites get massive amounts of traffic. And, with the best will in the world, if folks are buying their smoking materials on the black market, illegally, how much sway would anyone expect that to have with government or health authorities?

As you pointed out yourself, nicotine is classed as harmless. Just like earlier on, your stating that quitting smoking and quitting nicotine are the same thing. They are not the same thing. I have quit smoking, I no longer inhale smoke, and all it's nasty contents, I do however still inhale nicotine, it's that simple.

With respect, the WHO does not agree with you. You have not been cured of the disease of nicotine addiction, in their eyes. Yeah, I know, it's horsefeathers, but that's what we're dealing with (and some of us have been for the last three years). To those people, we are patients who have a mental condition which needs to be cured. And, again, I'm sorry to have to inform them that I am most certainly not a patient, insofar as my use of nicotine is concerned. It is recreational, as is caffeine and alcohol - medicalisation is patently NOT the answer - it will do much more harm than good.

Ok, I have read it all and the one thing that stands out clearly to me in your objection to wanting Dr's to promote vaping is clearly how it may affect your pocket, a very selfish attitude I think.
What would you have us do, go 'undergound' and tell no-one?

Sorry hifistud it seems from the replies to my efforts ,you are on your own, but you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that
but I will carry on with what I am doing regardless.

[Phoenix .]

Apr 12, 2012 21:52:58 GMT Perpetua said:

Good luck Phoenix . . . the general public will be easier to educate/enlighten than some in the Medical profession I'd suspect.

thanks, one can only try ones best to educate people.

[Phoenix .]

Apr 12, 2012 23:08:40 GMT hissie said:

I don't think it would be a good thing. I rekon vaping would end up being more expensive than smoking.

Health is more important than money don't you think? Thanks for your views on the topic.

[Phoenix .]

Apr 13, 2012 0:11:06 GMT alvoram said:

Well they are clearly being used as cessation devices by many, and IMO that makes them so, whether they're currently licensed as such or not.

there are just as many reason why it would be a good thing IMO, which is why I am not sure what to think.

1. As I said, it would help more people, by helping those unwilling to trust an unlicensed, unregulated product. And despite what you may think about it not being a cessation device, IMO if a product can save lives, the more it can save, the better.

2. It would mean quality is assured. At the minute whenever we buy liquid, we are putting our trust in the mixer, we don't know what safety procedures they have in place, or what is actually going into the product, as the industry is unregulated. I must make it clear however, that I trust most UK suppliers out there at the minute, but that may not always be the case, and quite rightly so.

3. It would be more widely accepted, I've not heard of any pub chains banning nicorette inhalers, for example.

4. It would be available on prescription. There are people out there who smoke cheap tobacco, that can't afford Ecigs, if they were available on prescription, most people who fall into this bracket would have access to them free of charge.

Also, I could be wrong about this, but I believe it's just prescription only medications (schedule 4i and below) that you can't import without a license, no other NRT falls into this category, so I have no reason to believe Ecigs would either, meaning you could still buy them from elsewhere if you chose to.

I, like many others, started vaping out of curiosity, and to see if I could cut down, but ended up quitting as it was so easy, as I said before, anything that could help other smokers realise the same is only a good thing IMO. I know I'm probably on my own here, and I have my hard hat on

Precisely, I am not advocating that Dr's should be distributor's just educators to the public who ask for their help with smoking cigarettes.

[Phoenix .]

Apr 13, 2012 10:00:12 GMT Scylla said:

You did a grand job there, Lil

Nice of you to say so scylla.

[Phoenix .]

Wow hifistud I really hit a sore point with you didn't I.
It was never my intention to upset anyone.

Surely it is in all out interests to have clarification that what we are doing is safe regardless of the costs probably will be increased, I think I speak for the majority when I say we don't do it to save money, but to save our health, what can be wrong with that ?

[alvoram]

Apr 13, 2012 15:48:19 GMT hifistud said:

Apr 13, 2012 11:24:14 GMT alvoram said:

Wow you need sleep, lol....

No smoking cessation means smoking cessation, you can't change the meaning of a term to suit your end of a debate. Even so I said it was a smoking cessation device, just like nicotine gum, inhalers, patches etc. People often carry on using these devices, way past the recommended amount of time, doesn't stop them being classed as smoking cessation devices.

Perhaps you need to refer to the World Health Organisation's website, where they refer to the "disease of nicotine addiction" and define "quit" to mean complete abstinence from nicotine - a view subscribed to by governments worldwide. I'm not changing any definitions.

All currently licensed NRT is specifically licensed to wean the smoker off nicotine dependence, originally by firstly breaking the hand to mouth habit, although that is now acknowledged as not necessary for licensing to proceed.

I don't need to refer to anything, we're talking about quitting smoking here, let's cut the jargon and look at the plain and simple fact that quitting smoking and quitting nicotine are 2 different things. Quitting smoking is to quit inhaling smoke, the tar, carcinogens, and other harmful chemicals in smoke. Quitting nicotine is the next step.

Whether it is licensed or not doesn't IMO affect whether something is a cessation device, as I've already said, so the same applies for what it is licensed for, not interested. What matters is how people actually use it, so based on that, Ecigs IMO are an unlicensed smoking cessation device. Still many people remain addicted to gum, inhalers etc, the same applies for ecigs, and will continue to apply whether they are licensed or not.

Apr 13, 2012 15:48:19 GMT hifistud said:

Try flogging 100mg juice - it's regulated under the General Products classification - Katherine Devlin can give you chapter and verse.

You know full well what I was talking about, what's to stop me making a juice, in a strength that is legal in this country, then selling it? (BTW it would probably be terrible, I've only just started mixing my own juices, so you can all stop PM'ing me with your orders please )

Apr 13, 2012 15:48:19 GMT hifistud said:

Again, CE marking rules apply - and it's down to the manufacturers to decide whether or not their product falls within the regulations and guidelines for mods.

They may well apply, it doesn't stop unsafe mods and general hardware being made and sold, both with and without that marking, see my charger thread for an example.

Apr 13, 2012 15:48:19 GMT hifistud said:

CN Creative - Intellicig - has its Nicadex already on the stocks for pending Marketing Authorisation. It is, in essence, an M401 e-cig which CNC claims to assemble in the UK. In their current literature, it's a very light blue, with a red LED end, and is as looky-likey as they come with actually being a white battery, although their EVO batteries are a perfect fit (hardly surprising, as they're exactly the same units) and they're pure white. It's highly unlikely that the MA will specify the colour of the battery, as the technology is based around the atomiser, switch and liquid - so fawn cart, white battery (or just off-white battery) in cylindrical format is where it will be. This isn't guesswork, by the way.

I've seen what intellicig are doing, I think it's fantastic tbh. Like I said, that was just a matter of opinion, I have no idea what 'colours' licensed ecigs will be available in. My point still stands though, once they are more widely known to the public, anyone will be able to tell the difference, and so occurrences of mistaken identity will be far less frequent.

Apr 13, 2012 15:48:19 GMT hifistud said:

Indeed so, but you assume that the doctors will prescribe an adequate sufficiency of materials to satisfy the tyro e-cig user. My hunch is that they won't, in the same way as they don't adequately address viagra and ciallis prescriptions. Apparently, for instance, once a week's more than plenty for a 55 year old bloke. And then they wonder why certain Indian companies' websites get massive amounts of traffic. And, with the best will in the world, if folks are buying their smoking materials on the black market, illegally, how much sway would anyone expect that to have with government or health authorities?

I agree this may be an obstacle, we don't really know yet. However did you know that on the NHS quit smoking programme, if you say that patches, or whatever option you choose, aren't enough for you, they allow you to have a second NRT option on the go at the same time?

Apr 13, 2012 15:48:19 GMT hifistud said:

As you pointed out yourself, nicotine is classed as harmless. Just like earlier on, your stating that quitting smoking and quitting nicotine are the same thing. They are not the same thing. I have quit smoking, I no longer inhale smoke, and all it's nasty contents, I do however still inhale nicotine, it's that simple.

With respect, the WHO does not agree with you. You have not been cured of the disease of nicotine addiction, in their eyes. Yeah, I know, it's horsefeathers, but that's what we're dealing with (and some of us have been for the last three years). To those people, we are patients who have a mental condition which needs to be cured. And, again, I'm sorry to have to inform them that I am most certainly not a patient, insofar as my use of nicotine is concerned. It is recreational, as is caffeine and alcohol - medicalisation is patently NOT the answer - it will do much more harm than good.

We seem to agree there, as in, who cares what they think? And I agree that you should be allowed to use your chosen nicotine delivery mechanism recreationally. But there is no reason you will not be able to should it be licensed. If you're willing to pay for it, and not have it prescribed, just like with other NRT, you will either be able to get it over here for a little more, with less choice, or import it. Whilst those wanting to quit smoking will have access to it, on prescription, with low risks, it's a win win IMO.

[Jemima]

Apr 13, 2012 16:10:29 GMT Phoenix . said:

Apr 12, 2012 23:08:40 GMT hissie said:

I don't think it would be a good thing. I rekon vaping would end up being more expensive than smoking.

Health is more important than money don't you think? Thanks for your views on the topic.

Generally yes, health is more important than money but thats always the case if you have money. A lot of us came to vaping because it was cheaper than cigarettes. For some people, especially at the moment, it's still a very strong side to the decision. It was a huge factor for me. £7 a pack

Most people I have spoken to have heard of e-cigs but they haven't tried them. Quite a few said it was because they didn't want to waste money, beliving it wouldn't work. They try my kit and a few go ahead to get their own. Can you really blame people on small incomes wanting to keep it out of the mainstream for as long as possible? Most people fear as soon as a governing authority gets involved the prices sky rocket. Would a huge price to start with put them off trying even more?

I think the authorities are going to do exactly what they want to do, if enough people take it up then it will be worth the taxes and other income they can get from it.

For me, they are doing exactly what I want them to do and that is very little atm. The industry is fairly well self regulated with ECITA and ECCA and the internet. Considering how many things could very easily of gone very very wrong, there has been surprisingly few incidents. So for now we can continue to grow in numbers till we reach the tipping point. At which point I'm sure some authority will come along to say hello.

If your happy getting out and about and getting the word out there, then thats great Maybe take a look at the CAM-VIP website as well and see if you can help out in some way or organise an event, or even start planning for a world vaping day event next March Plus there is Vapour Trails TV (which Hifi is heavily involved with) if you fancy doing a weekly show maybe, or ryradio. I love telling anyone who will listen about my e-cig and I think I've bored most of my friends silly by now lol but the word is out there and it's growing daily!

[hissie]

I'm on hifi's side. I agree with everything he has said in this thread.

If you personally have ANY concerns about vaping, you should consider ceasing vaping altogether & either go back to smoking or use NRT instead.

I believe it is as simple as that.

Vaping IS an alternative to smoking. It IS NOT a way of quitting smoking. Obviously, it's personal choice if you end up not smoking or vaping, but that's what it is.

I along with many others chose vaping as a viable healthier alternative to smoking & have no intention of using vaping as a way to quit smoking. I can imagine of vaping was banned, for instance, people would go back to smoking.

[Karma]

Apr 13, 2012 16:56:57 GMT hissie said:

I can imagine of vaping was banned, for instance, people would go back to smoking.

I think i would