NHS e mail and my reply

[vereybowring]

I agree regulation is required in the e cig industry.
That said I want it done via ECITA and ECCAUK rather than any government department sticking its oar in and doing blanket bans and the like.

The current regulations by government cover the devices with CE marks and Trading Standards.
As a modder I am aware that you can get untested devices and also know the chinese get round the regs easily enough.
That's an enforcement issue though, not a legislative one - if they tighten up I will just make mods for my own use since I can't afford insurance or official standards testing.
I haven't sold mods for a while partly because I worry about these things.
E-liquid needs regulated and ECCAUK is trying to aim for that one too, as is ECITA so that we the users can trace our product to source and get at test certificates.

We want e cigs kept as a standard electronic device not a medical one in any way.
The pharmaceutical industry will back attempts to ban e cigs since NRT is one of their biggest revenue streams and it would be a disaster if they got their way.
They can, and probably will, start making tax rules about e-cigs or more likely e liquid.
It would be hard for them to tax e cigs, since in that "colourful" legal speak they use a description could well end up snagging with the household kettle.
I can see them taxing e liquid at levels equivalent to tobacco products though which is still better than having to get your stuff on prescription.

If they ban it or only have it as NRT would I return to smoking ?
Only if I couldn't find a way to get e liquid imported, NRT e cig could work also since I'm in Scotland.

Personally I tell people about e cigs and try to give advice if people want it.
This usually comes after the "WTF is that thing ?" moment, I try to be helpful and try to avoid preaching (I do slip at times and become an e cig evangelist).
I will admit I mention it to friends who smoke but I don't become an e cig pusher (OK I did sell some mods to friends too, you got me).

Someone will die at some point with proven cause being e liquid or e cig related, this is how society is - it just takes one numbskull to drink a big bottle of eliquid and not throw up sufficiently fast.
Hell someone successfully sued for burning their mouth on McDonalds coffee even though the cup has warnings all over it.
That's why we need people like ECITA and ECCAUK to give us at least some chance at rebuttals in the media.

Debate should stimulate thoughts and be the genesis for ideas, only if a thread becomes a personal attack should it be closed.

Sorry for the length of post, I must have gone off on one or summat.

[Queenie Bee]

Apr 13, 2012 22:50:18 GMT hifistud said:

Apr 13, 2012 22:30:20 GMT alvoram said:

That's my main concern Perps, really, that they are not regulated, and this guys says it best...

"He said: “Electronic cigarettes have the potential to save thousands of lives, but the fact that they are unregulated is bad as it leaves people open to using unclean and unsafe products."

Hmmm.. Let's say Box Elder, and acknowledge that that particular debacle goes some way towards proving the point. But, balance that with total regulation. That means using only MHRA approved labs for the production of nic juices. Wave bye-bye to more or less all of your favourite juices. There's a reason why CNC had a cash injection of over two million - and that's because that's what it's going to cost them to get all the bits of paper they need for the medicinalisation of their frankly naff product.


The thing is, though, those very same trusted suppliers - more accurately, mixers - who buy pre-diluted nic in from God knows where (because they don't specifically state it) could easily fall prey to another Box Elder and end up sending out bottles of 40% nic juices, without even realising. However, ECITA is doing its best to cajole such folks to have their wares GCMS tested, so that customers can rest easy.

And, to be honest, I prefer it that way, purely because I really don't want HMG telling me what I can and can't have in the way of e-juice. I know who to avoid or who I prefer to avoid, and who I'd advise folks to use, if I was asked privately.

Oh and the minute someone dies, or gets ill, from some dodgy E liquid, it's all over isn't it?

Reportedly already happened, up here and handled at a coroner's court very close to me. A local anti-e-icig quack had a field day on telly blaming e-cigs for the poor unfortunate's death, with barely a mention of his 40 a day habit over 40 years. It came to nothing only because it was handled well by Katherine Devlin and others.

The future, though, looks a little rosier. Post Box Elder, we know that three UK vendors are coming together to produce juices in a state of the art lab backed up by GCMS testing of every batch. We know that ECITA members are subject to regular audit and their juices are also GCMS tested - you can see where I'm going with this...

As for the debate, let me make it very clear that I want to see e-cigs being as widely available as possible, e-juice as widely available as possible and for our vendors to be around in ten years time and longer. If e-cigs are medicinalised, none of that will be the case. Its not about the money for me - never has been, as anyone who watches either the Haze Hour or VT Talk can very likely confirm!

very informative HiFi you have come up with a great conclusion here would really like to hear more on the eliquid lab situation very interesting that 3 venders are teaming up for lab time this in its self proves in its self that they don't have concerns over the safety of their liquid and as long as us newbies buy juice from vendors recommended by long standing vapers and keep passing this info on its a no brainer when you think about it, i only buy from uk suppliers as i know the bigger risks lay with china or so i have read. My doc says its ok to vape and that's good enough for me and like you I hope that in ten years time I can still enjoy this with the choice of mods and choice of juice I have now. So what can I personally do to get involved making this all happen?

[Perpetua]

Apr 13, 2012 22:57:14 GMT hifistud said:

A while back, Perpy and I did a programme on what happened to the herbal remedies market following EU-wide regulation. We don't want to go there, either...

Indeed we did Hifi . . . and we most certainly don't . . . . if similar legislation were applied to ecigs, it doesn't bear thinking about . . .

[hifistud]

Apr 13, 2012 23:18:46 GMT Queenie Bee said:

very informative HiFi you have come up with a great conclusion here would really like to hear more on the eliquid lab situation very interesting that 3 venders are teaming up for lab time

We're going to do live broadcast from the new lab as sson as it's functional - keep tuned in!!

this in its self proves in its self that they don't have concerns over the safety of their liquid and as long as us newbies buy juice from vendors recommended by long standing vapers and keep passing this info on its a no brainer when you think about it, i only buy from uk suppliers as i know the bigger risks lay with china or so i have read.

You'll probably have read that on an American site - it's not the case. Dekang's labs, for instance, are very good.

My doc says its ok to vape and that's good enough for me and like you I hope that in ten years time I can still enjoy this with the choice of mods and choice of juice I have now. So what can I personally do to get involved making this all happen?

ECCA - that's the organisation.

[vereybowring]

Apr 13, 2012 23:51:50 GMT hifistud said:

We're going to do live broadcast from the new lab as sson as it's functional - keep tuned in!!

I will definitely be watching that one and desperately try to follow any tech talk with my long forgotten Higher Chemistry knowledge.

[Queenie Bee]

ECCA - that's the organisation. [/quote] I have tried joining up but having difficulty jemima has contacted them but I haven't had a reply yet can't wait to see the show from the lab

[Perpetua]

The Daily Mail's take on the ' Experts ' latest . . . never slow to jump on the hysteria bandwagon that paper . . .

www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2129550/Safety-fears-electronic-cigarettes-unclean-unregulated.html

[hifistud]

It does bug me, I'll admit. So far, worldwide, there have been no problems of injury or human casualty whatsoever in which e-juice has been culpable. None. Zero, a value below 1. Admittedly, it's not impossible, but, anecdotally, at least, there's no story here. I'm no believer in coincidence when it comes to this stuff, either, and I do know how journalists work in certain arenas. This smacks of press release and an agenda.

[maccafan]

I think that reputable juices manufactured in China meet or even exceed UK standards as far as sanitation goes..Read Here:

www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/vapor4life/54991-chinese-e-liquid-manufacturing-sanitary-conditions.html

There are points for and against regulation..A simple poll should sort out the two camps and many including myself are undecided as there are valid points from both sides. Enforcing said regulation will be almost impossible and will take huge resources which I don't think exist.

However, there is no point pretending to say that e-cigs are not a form of NRT..Almost every single vaper carries a signature stating how many cigs he/she has avoided and most of them talk about going off or reducing the nasties. I have yet to see a single newbie who has joined the vaping community to state that he/she wants to try e-cigs for recreational purposes.

[Queenie Bee]

Apr 13, 2012 17:52:45 GMT Queenie Bee said:

After reading I agree ecigs should be classified as recreational and then if people want to use them for smoking cessation on their own doing they can do so win win situation!

mac I am quoting my self here

[Roger]

Apr 14, 2012 11:33:57 GMT maccafan said:

I think that reputable juices manufactured in China meet or even exceed UK standards as far as sanitation goes..Read Here:

www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/vapor4life/54991-chinese-e-liquid-manufacturing-sanitary-conditions.html

There are points for and against regulation..A simple poll should sort out the two camps and many including myself are undecided as there are valid points from both sides. Enforcing said regulation will be almost impossible and will take huge resources which I don't think exist.

However, there is no point pretending to say that e-cigs are not a form of NRT..Almost every single vaper carries a signature stating how many cigs he/she has avoided and most of them talk about going off or reducing the nasties. I have yet to see a single newbie who has joined the vaping community to state that he/she wants to try e-cigs for recreational purposes.

That is not what is being said. E-cigs are not an official form of NRT, but that is what we use them for. But if they are regulated as NRT, that is when the problems may arise. Recreational regulation is better, although we will still use them as unofficial NRT.

[Roger]

Apr 14, 2012 13:25:14 GMT Queenie Bee said:

Apr 13, 2012 17:52:45 GMT Queenie Bee said:

After reading I agree ecigs should be classified as recreational and then if people want to use them for smoking cessation on their own doing they can do so win win situation!

mac I am quoting my self here

I personally think QB has hit the nail spot on here.

[hifistud]

As long as the general perception is that e-cigs are used as a form of NRT, then there is absolutely no chance of having the "third way" accepted. That perception is measured contemporaneously with any consultation, as it has to be. If the consultation was to be re-opened today, we would be sunk, as it seems the vast majority of current users are patently not looking to use e-cigs recreationally, but in order to quit.

that worries me - a lot.

Apr 14, 2012 13:43:43 GMT Roger said:

Apr 14, 2012 11:33:57 GMT maccafan said:

I think that reputable juices manufactured in China meet or even exceed UK standards as far as sanitation goes..Read Here:

www.e-cigarette-forum.com/forum/vapor4life/54991-chinese-e-liquid-manufacturing-sanitary-conditions.html

There are points for and against regulation..A simple poll should sort out the two camps and many including myself are undecided as there are valid points from both sides. Enforcing said regulation will be almost impossible and will take huge resources which I don't think exist.

However, there is no point pretending to say that e-cigs are not a form of NRT..Almost every single vaper carries a signature stating how many cigs he/she has avoided and most of them talk about going off or reducing the nasties. I have yet to see a single newbie who has joined the vaping community to state that he/she wants to try e-cigs for recreational purposes.

That is not what is being said. E-cigs are not an official form of NRT, but that is what we use them for. But if they are regulated as NRT, that is when the problems may arise. Recreational regulation is better, although we will still use them as unofficial NRT.

[maccafan]

Apr 14, 2012 14:37:39 GMT hifistud said:

As long as the general perception is that e-cigs are used as a form of NRT, then there is absolutely no chance of having the "third way" accepted. That perception is measured contemporaneously with any consultation, as it has to be. If the consultation was to be re-opened today, we would be sunk, as it seems the vast majority of current users are patently not looking to use e-cigs recreationally, but in order to quit.

that worries me - a lot.

Apr 14, 2012 13:43:43 GMT Roger said:

That is not what is being said. E-cigs are not an official form of NRT, but that is what we use them for. But if they are regulated as NRT, that is when the problems may arise. Recreational regulation is better, although we will still use them as unofficial NRT.

Unofficial soon to become official I am afraid..Its effectiveness as a relatively clean form of NRT for getting off cigarettes is indisputable.

If one person out of 100 uses a table tennis table as a dining table then there is a case to be made that it is a recreational product but if 99/100 people use it primarily for dining then it's a different matter. Usage is 9/10th's of the law just like possession is.

Why should it worry you HiFi..Was there ever a time when they were used recreationally? Maybe when they were initially conceived but times have changed and they have come a long way from the ultrasonic device that Ruyan invented.

I personally am glad that many people are finding a way to quit and if it becomes official NRT then many more will benefit.

It's going to be difficult one to regulate anyway so the juices will not disappear as you fear unless they are going to start arresting people for possession. I can't imagine something like that happening. They juices will become dearer and if the Chinese lose a big enough market, they will get MHRA and FDA approval even if it costs 200k.

Regulation is much better than the ban that many EU countries seem be imposing and what the FDA is contemplating/threatening.

[hifistud]

It worries me because MHRA is very likely to take all unlicensed product off the shelves inside 21 days. All of it. And trust me, I've tried Intellicig's product - you do not want to go there.

That's what regulation as NRT means. Ask Perpy what happened to the market she worked in... much of it is gone.

And the "ban" you mention? Those governments have said theyvonly be available as... guess what... yes, regulated medicines. Expect the same here if e-cigs are medicinalised. There will be one. Nothing else will be for sale.