NHS e mail and my reply

[Deleted]

yen dollar or gbp #icon_rofl#

[hifistud]

Apr 13, 2012 19:45:04 GMT @storm said:

Well Hissie we still haven't got much longer to go before the final decision on classification is announced , so we still have an uphill struggle until then ... and we still face a possible ban ....... god forbid

Does no-one think it's a little coincidental that CN Creative, having already gained accreditation for their labs from MHRA, and have had the initial request for research approved, will file for MA a few weeks before the MHRA re-opens the consultation process? And given that they've done all the groundwork to produce "medicinal style" so-called refills (pre-filled carts) for their evo and nicadex products on advice from folks at MHRA, how do we think that's gonna pan out?

The worst case scenario is that by June of 2013, you'll either be buying medical e-cigs from CNC or recreational sticks from Nicoventures. That'll be it. No juice, no other vendors, no nothing unless we actually do something. I really hope it doesn't come to that, but the writing's on the wall...

[hifistud]

Apr 13, 2012 16:07:29 GMT Phoenix . said:

Ok, I have read it all and the one thing that stands out clearly to me in your objection to wanting Dr's to promote vaping is clearly how it may affect your pocket, a very selfish attitude I think.
What would you have us do, go 'undergound' and tell no-one?

Sorry hifistud it seems from the replies to my efforts ,you are on your own, but you are entitled to your opinion and I respect that
but I will carry on with what I am doing regardless.

Effect on my pocket?? Do you KNOW how much I spend on e-cigs and juice?? My objections have got bugger all to do with money, and everything to do with the medicalisation of e-cigs taking them off the market!!!

[Perpetua]

It would be a shame to close the thread, that's my personal opinion . . . I certainly believe we can debate a topic like this without it getting silly . . . it would be a boring old world if we all agreed on everything.

It's good to have passions and to be impassioned about something you believe in, from whatever side of the coin.

Have you all seen this . . .

www.deadlinenews.co.uk/2012/04/13/experts-demand-tighter-controls-on-e-cigarettes/

[alvoram]

That's my main concern Perps, really, that they are not regulated, and this guys says it best...

"He said: “Electronic cigarettes have the potential to save thousands of lives, but the fact that they are unregulated is bad as it leaves people open to using unclean and unsafe products."

It's all theoretical of course, because as I've repeated many times, we have good suppliers right now, trusted suppliers who do a fantastic job, but whilst they're unregulated there is nothing to stop somebody producing something less safe, and not everyone reads forums, or researches a product properly before buying, they could be harmed, and that's what I fear.

Oh and the minute someone dies, or gets ill, from some dodgy E liquid, it's all over isn't it?

[hissie]

Propaganda comes in all forms.

[alvoram]

I thought the article read as quite favourable towards ecigs hissie, but concerned about the lack of regulation. I wouldn't call it propaganda.

[hissie]

It's unshamedly propaganda.

[Perpetua]

The problem is regulation will inevitably lead to less choice for the consumer Alvo and it will come at a cost . . . be that in less choice or the actual product cost.

Everyone wants ecigs and related products to be produced to the highest safety standards possible . . . but I question the motives behind these so say experts, who are looking after our well being. They seem to put a lot of value on half baked, precious little actual research done on ecigs.

And, if we let the EU and FDA dictate what happens in our country, then I despair really . . . whilst we have a Government seemingly more concerned with whether a fag packet is branded or not and an idiot from ASH being given prime time TV to air her pathetic views about smokers buying fags because of the branding, as a smoker thinks that a certain packaging is 'sexy' . . . I again despair.

[hissie]

Couldn't agree more perpy.

Also, nothing worse than reformed smokers

[alvoram]

This is just me tossing ideas around, I have no idea of the feasibility or probability of this, but... There has been talk of classification as a recreational device, Is it possible for Ecigs to be classified as something similar to cigarettes, with regulations on manufacture, such as approved ingredients and quality testing, and regulations on distribution such as age restrictions? Although the industry is very good at regulating itself on age, so thumbs up there... Is this possible?

[hifistud]

Apr 13, 2012 22:30:20 GMT alvoram said:

That's my main concern Perps, really, that they are not regulated, and this guys says it best...

"He said: “Electronic cigarettes have the potential to save thousands of lives, but the fact that they are unregulated is bad as it leaves people open to using unclean and unsafe products."

Hmmm.. Let's say Box Elder, and acknowledge that that particular debacle goes some way towards proving the point. But, balance that with total regulation. That means using only MHRA approved labs for the production of nic juices. Wave bye-bye to more or less all of your favourite juices. There's a reason why CNC had a cash injection of over two million - and that's because that's what it's going to cost them to get all the bits of paper they need for the medicinalisation of their frankly naff product.

It's all theoretical of course, because as I've repeated many times, we have good suppliers right now, trusted suppliers who do a fantastic job, but whilst they're unregulated there is nothing to stop somebody producing something less safe, and not everyone reads forums, or researches a product properly before buying, they could be harmed, and that's what I fear.

The thing is, though, those very same trusted suppliers - more accurately, mixers - who buy pre-diluted nic in from God knows where (because they don't specifically state it) could easily fall prey to another Box Elder and end up sending out bottles of 40% nic juices, without even realising. However, ECITA is doing its best to cajole such folks to have their wares GCMS tested, so that customers can rest easy.

And, to be honest, I prefer it that way, purely because I really don't want HMG telling me what I can and can't have in the way of e-juice. I know who to avoid or who I prefer to avoid, and who I'd advise folks to use, if I was asked privately.

Oh and the minute someone dies, or gets ill, from some dodgy E liquid, it's all over isn't it?

Reportedly already happened, up here and handled at a coroner's court very close to me. A local anti-e-icig quack had a field day on telly blaming e-cigs for the poor unfortunate's death, with barely a mention of his 40 a day habit over 40 years. It came to nothing only because it was handled well by Katherine Devlin and others.

The future, though, looks a little rosier. Post Box Elder, we know that three UK vendors are coming together to produce juices in a state of the art lab backed up by GCMS testing of every batch. We know that ECITA members are subject to regular audit and their juices are also GCMS tested - you can see where I'm going with this...

As for the debate, let me make it very clear that I want to see e-cigs being as widely available as possible, e-juice as widely available as possible and for our vendors to be around in ten years time and longer. If e-cigs are medicinalised, none of that will be the case. Its not about the money for me - never has been, as anyone who watches either the Haze Hour or VT Talk can very likely confirm!

[hifistud]

Apr 13, 2012 22:48:32 GMT alvoram said:

This is just me tossing ideas around, I have no idea of the feasibility or probability of this, but... There has been talk of classification as a recreational device, Is it possible for Ecigs to be classified as something similar to cigarettes, with regulations on manufacture, such as approved ingredients and quality testing, and regulations on distribution such as age restrictions? Although the industry is very good at regulating itself on age, so thumbs up there... Is this possible?

This is, basically, the "third way", which is what a lot of us have been fighting for for quite some time. The RCP actually backed a "third way", but the then government, being heavily nanny state and control biased, more or less ignored it.

Lansley will strenuously oppose classification as tobacco (as would I, I think - it doesn't help us at all), but Nicoventures is aiming to get a sort of "recreational cum harm reduction" classification for their device - which isn't an e-cig, by the way.

The problem with all of this is the time and costs of gaining MAs, and the disruption to the market while they're being sought.

A while back, Perpy and I did a programme on what happened to the herbal remedies market following EU-wide regulation. We don't want to go there, either...

[alvoram]

It's a shame the idea was ignored hifi, because the more I think about it, the more I think something along those lines would be the best outcome for everyone.

The only point I've raised that it wouldn't address is those poorer smokers, spending less than a fiver a week on smoking who can't afford any more. However if it becomes more main stream, I'm sure they'd be able to find a way of affording it, once it's proven to be beneficial for them, it's not a massive difference at the end of the day.

[Karma]

I like the freedom to make my own choices

I don't like living in a nanny state

I fear that legisation will limit my choices