What we have to deal with

[Raffles]

Mark, I hear where you're coming from, but it's not just about us. It's that I don't feel we should be pushing it into other's faces. I'm so happy to have found vaping, but I can totally understand other views. It will take decades to change a lot of these opinions, and if we push it too hard we'll spoil it for ourselves. The impression, especially on younger people, is that we're still smoking and that it's cool. It will take many years of positive education to reverse this, and we have to be patient, not being dogmatic about our 'already convinced' views. In the meantime, we need to be reasonable, and continue to enjoy our preferred option.

[markm]

I'm actually advocating being visible, approachable and informative, not confrontational or hiding away.
It's a fine line, I think an emphasis on sharing the news rather than demanding to be heard.

[womble]

Apr 19, 2013 19:44:59 GMT Raffles said:

Mark, I hear where you're coming from, but it's not just about us. It's that I don't feel we should be pushing it into other's faces. I'm so happy to have found vaping, but I can totally understand other views. It will take decades to change a lot of these opinions, and if we push it too hard we'll spoil it for ourselves. The impression, especially on younger people, is that we're still smoking and that it's cool. It will take many years of positive education to reverse this, and we have to be patient, not being dogmatic about our 'already convinced' views. In the meantime, we need to be reasonable, and continue to enjoy our preferred option.

You and markm have bought together the views I hold, we should endeavour to hold to our values and not force them down peoples throats. Yet we should not back down where uninformed persons think we are still smoking.When we are clearly vaping and vaping has nothing to do with smoking.
raffles, you should be a ecig spokesman, I just get too emotional about it.

[lobeydosser]

Looking at this from the ill informed, or the non smoker, or the ex-smoker's point of view;-
The bottom line is that both the Cigarette and the E-cig are Nicotine delivery systems, end of.

In their eyes, if both are doing the same job, it is imaterial how they do it, and if there are laws that govern where one is used, the same laws should apply against the other.

Personally I always ask if I can vape before I do so and if the answer is no, then I go outside with the smokers. I most certainly would not argue about it and I would certainly not vape on someone elses premises without asking first.

I am still adicted to nicotine, however I have chosen to consume it in a different way. A way that is better, health wise and financial wise. But these are steps that I took for me. Not for the benefit of anyone else.

The question was ask some months ago that as a Vaper, do you consider yourself to still be a Smoker.
I think about one in three still considered themselves Smokers.
Now that is a surprisingly large number on a Forum that is dedicated to Vaping.
I suspect that a lot more Vapers who are not on Forums, and lets face it, the majority of Vapers in the UK are not members of Forums, still think of themselves as Smokers, just doing it without burning anything.

So returning to the beginning, the guy who moaned about someone vaping in a place where people were eating, had exactly the same right to do so as the vaper had to vape, as long as he had asked permission to do so before he vaped there.

[digicig]

From an outside and 'Armchair Psychology'/Transactional Analysis view Womble - whenever Vaping comes up he appears to go into 'Parent Mode' - and thee are in Adult mode trying to discuss vaping with him.
Parent and Adult can't communicate - and thee probably then get shifted to Child mode - as this usually happens.

If thee probably need to join him in Parent mode for a bit to shift him into Adult mode - where true communication is possible between equals
Or of course thee could try to shift him into Child mode and set him straight LoL

[lobeydosser]

Apr 20, 2013 1:46:12 GMT digicig said:

From an outside and 'Armchair Psychology'/Transactional Analysis view Womble - whenever Vaping comes up he appears to go into 'Parent Mode' - and thee are in Adult mode trying to discuss vaping with him.
Parent and Adult can't communicate - and thee probably then get shifted to Child mode - as this usually happens.

If thee probably need to join him in Parent mode for a bit to shift him into Adult mode - where true communication is possible between equals
Or of course thee could try to shift him into Child mode and set him straight LoL

Being follicly challenged, I don't get quite the same disturbance on the top of my head as others might when reading the above, but none the less, there was a distinct draught as all of that went completely over my head.

Could you perhaps write that again in plain speak?

[digicig]

Not really LoL
TA is a way of interacting with other people using a model of Parent, Adult and Child - PAC man and a recognised way of improving systemic communication

Easier explanation here

It can also be used to 'Shift' folk into modes that are more advantageous for communication - i.e. those between equals = Adult to Adult mode.

[lobeydosser]

Well having read the Linky, I am ever so glad that whilst being an adult, I am not a parent and I am retired from business.

There is a lot to be said for the grumpy OAP Movement!!!

[digicig]

It can be utilized as part of the therapeutic 'tool box' - also as a way of maneuvering folk into more co-operative states - with or without their permission
Me Dad has been most disconcerted by some of our 'chats' - finding himself 'mysteriously' in Naughty Child mode

[Jen]

The parent analogy is probably fairly accurate in a more practical way too - worrying about image, examples to younger people, effects on kids. Doesn't sound like he's objecting to vaping per se, more the wider impact of it. And I think it's fair enough to ask those questions, just as it is to wonder what the long-term effects of vaping are too. Whilst we can make a reasonable guess, we just don't know and that is going to cause problems. I know I feel healthier, I don't think I'm doing myself the same amount of harm, but that does not equate to 'no harm at all'.

The anti-smoking campaign was enormously successful, and this is the outcome. Anything that looks like smoking is going to be easily villifiable regardless of the actual facts. And facts are never, ever the sole factor in opinion formation. Not even for me and all my letters after my name That's selection bias for you.

[digicig]

Vaping is Tobacco harm Reduction - assumed with current knowledge to be a less unhealthy option to Tobacco

To Paraphrase Dr Carl Phillips

With our current level of knowledge, you are better off using Electronic Cigarettes for the rest of your life, than smoking for another month!

[lobeydosser]

There are some myths to vaping, like residual vapour and the effects that that may have on people around a vaper.

Anyone who thinks that vaping is a clean form of nicotine delivery just has to look at the inside of the window of the room they choose to do most of their vaping in!

It may not have the tar that smoking leaves behind, but we have yet to find out just what is in that residual and if it would cause others harm.

[giles]

Apr 20, 2013 16:50:50 GMT lobeydosser said:

It may not have the tar that smoking leaves behind, but we have yet to find out just what is in that residual and if it would cause others harm.

Actually it has been fairly well researched Lobey. www.utahvapers.com/clearstream.html to link to just one.

[majnu]

Apr 20, 2013 1:22:52 GMT lobeydosser said:

Looking at this from the ill informed, or the non smoker, or the ex-smoker's point of view;-
The bottom line is that both the Cigarette and the E-cig are Nicotine delivery systems, end of.

In their eyes, if both are doing the same job, it is imaterial how they do it, and if there are laws that govern where one is used, the same laws should apply against the other.

Personally I always ask if I can vape before I do so and if the answer is no, then I go outside with the smokers. I most certainly would not argue about it and I would certainly not vape on someone elses premises without asking first.

I am still adicted to nicotine, however I have chosen to consume it in a different way. A way that is better, health wise and financial wise. But these are steps that I took for me. Not for the benefit of anyone else.

The question was ask some months ago that as a Vaper, do you consider yourself to still be a Smoker.
I think about one in three still considered themselves Smokers.
Now that is a surprisingly large number on a Forum that is dedicated to Vaping.
I suspect that a lot more Vapers who are not on Forums, and lets face it, the majority of Vapers in the UK are not members of Forums, still think of themselves as Smokers, just doing it without burning anything.

So returning to the beginning, the guy who moaned about someone vaping in a place where people were eating, had exactly the same right to do so as the vaper had to vape, as long as he had asked permission to do so before he vaped there.

E-cigs are nicotine delivery systems I agree, but why should the same laws of cigarettes apply to them?

The passive smoke from cigarettes contain harmful chemicals which is why I thought there was a national indoor smoking ban. E-cigs contain trace elements of nicotine and that's it - until the medical institute carry out a study to prove otherwise. 

Not everyone is PC, so they will consider themselves smokers, even though they don't have a cigarette. Additionally not even the Oxford dictionary gives a precise definition for vapour. Which in my opinion should be a person who vapes an e-cigarette. There is a definition for smoker (noun 1a - person who smokes tobacco regularly.)

If people are put off by the vapour smell then I don't see how that is any different to people in the office environment who have BO or someone who eats a Bacon or Egg sandwich for breakfast which smells revolting imo or a person who goes OTT with perfrume. Should these people be banned from establishments too?

Vaping policies should be down to management discretion in pubs, bars, social establishments etc. If studies show that people who use e-cigarettes are on the increase then I for one would make my environment vapour friendly just to get more people though the door.

I also agree that a tiny percentage of people who use e-cigarettes join forums as not everyone is an enthusiast or follows the industry.

[mybad]

Womble , your neighbour is a self righteous prick with an attitude of, if it will not do, then hit it.